Loss of salvation???

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Oct 19, 2024
4,569
1,021
113
USA-TX
The short story: He accepted Christ, believed and followed Him. He was real, alive, and growing for God. Then various circumstances came into the picture (of which I shall not go into here), and he gradually got entangled in first humanism, then atheism, and later Islam, and others. Sad story . . .
Well, in my case I had been raised as a Christian but knew very little from attending Sunday School and church services weekly beyond the basic Gospel, so when a missionary's daughter became an atheist and I learned that my favorite HS English teacher had been a minister but was now an agnostic, it caused me to wonder why, but I began seeking answers and some of them are these:

Atheists claim there is no more evidence for the existence of God, the Creator and Judge of humanity, than for the reality of obviously fictional entities, such as Odin or unicorns. However, four types of evidence or reasoning may be viewed as supporting rational belief in God, although they do not prove He exists: the unique universe, theocentric human history, existential need and moral conscience.

Current scientific theory states that the universe began with a “bang”, when a marble of matter or a singularity of energy suddenly exploded, and that it will end with a “whimper” when the stars eventually fade to darkness. This unique universe theory is compatible or consistent with belief in a God who created the universe “ex nihilo”, who sustains it by His power, and who will judge its moral agents at the end of time.

Current knowledge of world history suggests that humanity descended from one genetic source and evolved into various cultures. Throughout history humanity has perceived deity to be the ground of meaning and morality. Theocentric history reached its apex or spiritual climax with the NT teaching that there is one almighty and all-loving God, who desires all humanity to live in harmony on earth and also in heaven, and who allows humanity to experience earthly existence including pain and disappointment (KOTH) for the purpose of teaching them their need for Him (cf. HB 12:10).

Current existential reality indicates that mortals need God in order to obtain immortality, that morality needs God for a universal imperative and ultimate justice, and that the NT offers the best hope that this “duo of desirables” (DOD) or heaven and justice/hell can be attained. Just as physical needs are satisfied by material realities, perhaps our metaphysical needs indicate the reality of supernatural solutions (the God of the DOD).

Moral conscience indicates and logically requires accountability to a moral authority, and the supreme Authority would be God. Paul wrote (in RM 1:32 & 2:15) that people “know God’s decree that those who do evil deserve death” and that their consciences “show that the requirements of the [God’s moral] law are written on their hearts.” Our feeble attempts at earthly justice may reflect or serve as evidence of God’s perfect justice. This view is similar to Platonic idealism (cf. 1CR 13:12, HB 8:5, 9:23 & 10:1). We may perceive perfect justice partially (1CR 13:9-12) using spiritual eyes/intuition/a sixth sense along with inference, logic, and even imagination. [Slashes indicate essentially equivalent terms.]

This evidence is not proof, but because this hope and belief are based on evidence and logic, it is rational rather than “blind”, and it is made even more intellectually reasonable or defensible by acknowledging ways God would be disproved, which include the following:

1. If atheists or anti-christians created eternal life, because the Bible teaches that eternal life is God’s gift only to believers in Him (JN 3:16).

2. If the body of Jesus of Nazareth were discovered in a tomb, because Paul stated that if Christ is not resurrected, then faith is useless (1CR 15:14).

3. If it were proven that moral free will (MFW) is an illusion, because the premise of biblical morality is that human souls are accountable (DT 30:19-20).

4. If human-like beings on another planet had no salvation history involving God and Christ, because the Bible teaches that God is Lord of all (PHP 2:9-11). (Caveat: If they are included in the Great Commission, their history would be like the OT.)

5. If God could prove His existence to people without abrogating free will (cf. 2CR 5:7), but apparently God performs miracles only as necessary to accomplish His plan of salvation.

6. If it were proved that the universe is not created, because resurrection or re-creation presupposes creation and thus a Creator (ACTS 17:24-31).

But atheism has not proven these. Thus, both theism and atheism are unproven opinions or opposite subjective conclusions requiring faith concerning ultimate reality. However, the NT teaches there will come a time—at the resurrection or eschaton—when the proof atheists demand will be provided, and KOTH will end. At that time theism will be revealed as the right or true ideology as souls reap the opposite destinies of heaven and hell in accordance with their moral choices, beginning with their decision whether to love or to disregard God (cf. MT 7:24-27) .
 
Feb 17, 2023
2,204
1,263
113
The short story: He accepted Christ, believed and followed Him. He was real, alive, and growing for God. Then various circumstances came into the picture (of which I shall not go into here), and he gradually got entangled in first humanism, then atheism, and later Islam, and others. Sad story . . .

My sister was seeking the Lord when she was a teenager - reading the Bible and praying. But she never did get saved. Then a few years later, I was seeking God too - except I DID get saved. I asked God what had happened with my sister that she didn't get saved? He laid it on my heart that she had preconceived ideas about Him and she never found that version of Him.

That could be what happened? He had preconceived ideas about God and that's why he's all over the map looking for Him everywhere and nowhere? My sister still seeks God, I think partly because she sees me continue to live in fellowship with the Lord so she might be thinking there is something to my own salvation. I will pray for him as I also pray for my sister. They're both alive so there's still the hope they will come around to accepting the real God - the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.


🚟
 
Oct 19, 2024
4,569
1,021
113
USA-TX
My sister was seeking the Lord when she was a teenager - reading the Bible and praying. But she never did get saved. Then a few years later, I was seeking God too - except I DID get saved. I asked God what had happened with my sister that she didn't get saved? He laid it on my heart that she had preconceived ideas about Him and she never found that version of Him.

That could be what happened? He had preconceived ideas about God and that's why he's all over the map looking for Him everywhere and nowhere? My sister still seeks God, I think partly because she sees me continue to live in fellowship with the Lord so she might be thinking there is something to my own salvation. I will pray for him as I also pray for my sister. They're both alive so there's still the hope they will come around to accepting the real God - the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.


🚟
Do you know what her preconceptions were?
 
Feb 17, 2023
2,204
1,263
113
Do you know what her preconceptions were?

I think she was seeking instant answers - I'm thinking she just wanted help, but not necessarily wanted to get to know God for Himself.

She was unitarian for a while and was active in it but it's because she just likes church life without the commitment to God. Now she left it and is considering genuinely Christian churches so hopefully she is willing to get to know God, how much He loves her and what He did for her on the cross. i just have to keep praying for her and living out my testimony to her.


🚟
 
Oct 19, 2024
4,569
1,021
113
USA-TX
I think she was seeking instant answers - I'm thinking she just wanted help, but not necessarily wanted to get to know God for Himself.

She was unitarian for a while and was active in it but it's because she just likes church life without the commitment to God. Now she left it and is considering genuinely Christian churches so hopefully she is willing to get to know God, how much He loves her and what He did for her on the cross. i just have to keep praying for her and living out my testimony to her.


🚟
Yes, although God gives salvation the instant a person accepts Christ, sometimes Christians give the impression that God will give instant answers to other problems, when what is needed is a slow learning of GW to serve as a reservoir from which to draw in times of trouble.

Yes, perhaps no one was able to explain how one God relates to humanity in three ways, and unitarianism does not explain it either. Perhaps she would be helped by reading the first two lessons on our website: The Best Belief and The Christian Creed.
(At least they provide answers to questions I had :^)
 

studier

Well-known member
Apr 18, 2024
2,916
650
113
So, I'm curious about why you think Paul would summarize out something as important as that one element that Peter preached to Israel before the fall of Israel.
I don't know what else I can tell you after all the things I've already said re: 1Cor15. IMO it's not Paul's full Gospel. When Paul was traveling, teaching, evangelizing we have a record of what he was saying to Jews and Gentiles:

Acts13:16-44 Then Paul stood up, and motioning with his hand said, "Men of Israel, and you who fear God, listen:
  • Paul is speaking to Jews and God-fearing Gentiles
17 "The God of this people Israel chose our fathers, and exalted the people when they dwelt as strangers in the land of Egypt, and with an uplifted arm He brought them out of it.
18 "Now for a time of about forty years He put up with their ways in the wilderness.
19 "And when He had destroyed seven nations in the land of Canaan, He distributed their land to them by allotment.
20 "After that He gave them judges for about four hundred and fifty years, until Samuel the prophet.
21 "And afterward they asked for a king; so God gave them Saul the son of Kish, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, for forty years.
22 "And when He had removed him, He raised up for them David as king, to whom also He gave testimony and said, 'I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after My own heart, who will do all My will.'
  • Davidic Covenant - Eternal Davidic Kingship
23 "From this man's seed, according to the promise, God raised up for Israel a Savior-- Jesus--
  • Davidic lineage - Eternal Davidic King
  • Savior
  • Messiah
24 "after John had first preached, before His coming, the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.
  • {For your benefit} John & the baptism of repentance to Israel
25 "And as John was finishing his course, he said, 'Who do you think I am? I am not He. But behold, there comes One after me, the sandals of whose feet I am not worthy to loose.'
  • John the herald of the coming King
26 "Men and brethren, sons of the family of Abraham, and those among you who fear God, to you the word of this salvation has been sent.
  • To the Abrahamic lineage
  • To the nations/Gentiles who fear God
  • The message of Salvation
27 "For those who dwell in Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they did not know Him, nor even the voices of the Prophets which are read every Sabbath, have fulfilled them in condemning Him.
  • Condemning Messiah Jesus - fulfillment of prophecy
28 "And though they found no cause for death in Him, they asked Pilate that He should be put to death.
  • No crime (no sin) - Messiah Jesus' death (1Cor15:3-6)
29 "Now when they had fulfilled all that was written concerning Him, they took Him down from the tree and laid Him in a tomb.
  • All prophecy re: Him fulfilled
  • The Cross
  • Burial (1Cor15:3-6)
30 "But God raised Him from the dead.
31 "He was seen for many days by those who came up with Him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are His witnesses to the people.
32 "And we declare to you glad tidings-- that promise which was made to the fathers.
  • The Good News - the Gospel (1Cor15:1-6)
  • Promised to the Jews Fathers
33 "God has fulfilled this for us their children, in that He has raised up Jesus. As it is also written in the second Psalm: 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.'
  • Resurrected Jesus (1Cor15:1-6)
  • The second Psalm - teaches re: YHWH's Anointed/Messiah/Christ - YHWH's King who inherits the earth - The King of kings who you'd best kiss lest He be angry
34 "And that He raised Him from the dead, no more to return to corruption, He has spoken thus: 'I will give you the sure mercies of David.'
35 "Therefore He also says in another Psalm: 'You will not allow Your Holy One to see corruption.'
36 "For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell asleep, was buried with his fathers, and saw corruption;
37 "but He whom God raised up saw no corruption.
38 "Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through this Man is preached to you the forgiveness of sins;
39 "and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.
40 "Beware therefore, lest what has been spoken in the prophets come upon you:
  • Warning re: not believing
41 "Behold, you despisers, Marvel and perish! For I work a work in your days, A work which you will by no means believe, Though one were to declare it to you.'"
  • Hab1:5 - they've now been told so believe or else
42 So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.
43 Now when the congregation had broken up, many of the Jews and devout proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.
44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God.

  • Through Luke's record we can continue to track Paul's work and continued reasoning in synagogues (to the Jew first) with Jews and God-fearing Gentiles
  • In Acts18 Paul is in Corinth and being compelled to focus on Jesus = Christ which he refers to in 1Cor3:10-11 as the only foundation. He remained there for 1.5 years teaching the Word of God Acts18:11.
  • When Paul speaks in 1Cor3:14 of having baptized Crispus and Gaius it looks to me like Crispus was the ruler of the synagogue Acts18:8 who Paul baptized at the time "many of the Corinthians [when] hearing were believing and being baptized". Gaius looks to be a Macedonian who became one of Paul's traveling companions Acts19:9 a Jew or Gentile I'm not looking into more deeply.
  • IMO it's very simple to see that Paul in 1Cor15:1-6 is referring back to his evangelizing and teaching recorded in Acts. After reading this record it seems simple to see that Paul is simple pointing back to what he had taught in Corinth per Acts and that his teaching was extensively reasoned and of content from the Hebrew Scriptures mainly instructing of who and what Messiah is and who is Messiah. He taught there for 1.5 years.
  • The foundation of the Gospel Paul was proclaiming among Jews and Gentiles is that Jesus is the Christ, and the Christ is the Eternal Davidic King and inherits the earth from YHWH. And Messiah Jesus is the Savior of/from Israel proclaimed to Jews and Gentiles. And Messiah Jesus as proclaimed in the Prophets died on a tree for our sins, was buried and was resurrected. All of this is in the record of Acts and is highlighted in summary form in 1Cor15:1-6 (except for the name Jesus) as Paul lays the groundwork for his extensive instruction (again!) and reasoning on resurrection which some were apparently being swayed from (1Cor15:33...)
  • Paul had apparently baptized only on a few occasions, but many in Corinth were being baptized. Paul does not have to summarize everything in 1Cor15 in order to set up a discussion re: resurrection (There's no reason to repeat this anymore). It looks to me based upon the record in Acts and Paul's statements re: baptism, that baptism was clearly taking place in Paul's ministry travels and that he's glad he hadn't personally baptized many so they couldn't be playing their infantile games of favoritism of God's fellow-workers in their coming to Faith and being taught in the Faith. He doesn't say anything one way or another re: baptism in 1Cor3 and baptism was clearly being done.
cont'd
 

studier

Well-known member
Apr 18, 2024
2,916
650
113
@Musicmaster

cont'd

As for the "baptism of repentance" to Israel, I'm sure there is some discussion to be had about it. But Paul's proclamation was clearly based in Israel's history re: Israel's Messiah whose ministry would be to Jews and Gentiles. The only reason we're not teaching like Paul and making clear what "Christ" means IMO is because we're intent on dumbing down the message to its summary and thereby not making clear who and what Jesus is and thus what our required orientation is to Him as the one with all authority in Heaven and on earth - IOW we're staring the building with no foundation (1Cor15 does not explain "Christ" - the only foundation - because the Corinthian Christians had already been taught who and what Christ is) and not including the warning Paul ended with in Acts13:40-41 to believe or else:
  • NKJ Luke6:46-49"But why do you call Me 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do the things which I say? 47 "Whoever comes to Me, and hears My sayings and does them, I will show you whom he is like: 48 "He is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock. And when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently against that house, and could not shake it, for it was founded on the rock. 49 "But he who heard and did nothing is like a man who built a house on the earth without a foundation, against which the stream beat vehemently; and immediately it fell. And the ruin of that house was great." (Lk. 6:46-49 NKJ)
  • NKJ Matt7:22-29 "Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' 23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!' 24 "Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: 25 "and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock. 26 "But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: 27 "and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall." 28 And so it was, when Jesus had ended these sayings, that the people were astonished at His teaching, 29 for He taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.
 

studier

Well-known member
Apr 18, 2024
2,916
650
113
because she just likes church life without the commitment to God
Makes sense. And a lot of church life and experience has been structured to provide a comfortable and entertaining life for such people but how many of them are truly coming to saving Faith has been a topic of discussion and debate for a long time.

I was on a plane once and heard an older lady talking a young man about church and her evangelism essentially boiled down to, 'you should come to our church. You can be busy 7 days a week. We have all of these [social] things to do..."