Loss of salvation???

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studier

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Apr 18, 2024
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"My dad can beat up your dad..."
Good timing. Just came back.

Yes, this is pretty much how I read the type of rants you put forth. The tough guy my pastor, may camp, my belief is bigger than yours.

Not too many posts ago we were presented with your superiority based upon your Jewish heritage and upbringing. I appealed to you then. Now we get the same from your what, Hyper-Dispensationalist theology?

The one thing that is overtly consistent from all the camps-based soldiers here is the keyboard warrior antagonism. It's quite a challenge to not get drawn into the methodology. I did an experiment on another thread to see how far the soldiering would descend with one poster. It ended in the sewer where I expected. I'm not going to go through the same experiment with you. You show immediate signs of going to the same depths.

So, no, I don't agree with the 2 Gospel theory. Label this as you will. And this is not the topic of discussion. One thing I'd note for your heritage though, is that I'd think it would be beneficial for Gentiles to have some knowledge of who and what the Messiah is. Understand it or not many Gentiles go for some time if not forever think Christ is Jesus' last name if they ever even think about it.

As for the thread topic you're already trending into the sewer. What's the point? Do you seriously think you can just label views that don't agree with yours as "crap" and that some of us who are asking to show us Scripturally how you substantiate your view will be intimidated by your methodology? In actuality it's just the opposite. You're being unimpressive to say the least.
 

studier

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No one knows anything with absolute certainty other than the unavoidable a priori truths cited in Lesson 1 of our website,
but I have known people who once claimed to be Christians and then repudiated that faith.
Not speaking to your website, I agree with the rest of what you say here.
 

studier

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Apr 18, 2024
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Folks, I'd like to ask that we all reason together without the juvenality of playing the victim card and applying all manner of other antics to try and avoid justifying a position any one of us takes on a topic. That goes for myself as well. I WANT to be challenged about what I state as my current belief, because if I'm rationally and theologically wrong, then convince me as to why. The world around us plays the victim card so much that it's nothing but tattered papers blowing in the winds of subjectivism, figuratively speaking.

The question still remains, WHO have any of you know who lost their salvation, and HOW do you know that without any vestige or shadow of a doubt? How did you prove it to the point that you believe it with absolute certainty apart from emotions, feelings in your chest, burning bosom, et al?

Thanks

MM
What you're referring to as the victim card is simply your assertion of how you want to view things. Some of us may simply not want to play your ranting games.

I don't recall having seen much use and analysis of Scripture in your rants.

If you want to be challenged as you say, then let's get into some Scripture and see if we can all learn something on topic.

If you want to be challenged for your "juvenality" of playing tough guy via rants, you win (while some of us would not see it as a win for you or anyone).
 
Oct 19, 2024
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Not speaking to your website, I agree with the rest of what you say here.
Well, I begin the website thusly:

Part I: Beginning (Unavoidable) Beliefs

My reason for writing this lesson is simply to share my fallible faith with others, hoping they will find what I have learned helpful for understanding ultimate truth. I am grateful to all people—famous philosophers and anonymous acquaintances—who have helped shape my beliefs. I believe reality is interconnected or unified, so that it is not necessary to worry about where to start exploring, but I will begin by asking the following philosophical question: Is there some truth which is not debatable; which everyone believes at least implicitly and uses as a common point of departure in discussing ultimate reality?

I think there is such axiomatic truth, because in order to study reality it appears that one must (logically or implicitly) begin by assuming at least the reality of the student. Thus, absolute skepticism in philosophy is like absolute zero in physics: it serves as a hypothetical point that is not actually achieved or else nothing would happen (even in ice :^).

An “ism” affirms some valid part of reality. The truth represented by skepticism is that finite human beings cannot know absolutely, infallibly, perfectly or objectively. I find this truth expressed by the apostle Paul in the NT book of 1CR 13:9&12, “We know in part . . . We see but a poor reflection” (as in a fogged mirror).

The element of uncertainty does not prevent would-be skeptics from talking as if knowledge with some degree of confidence were possible the moment they attempt to communicate their doubts. An agnostic has “certain” assumptions at least implicitly: that truth is believable, rational and meaningful, even though unprovable or subjective.

These three affirmations seem to be a priori truth or unavoidable (beginning) beliefs:

1. Truth or reality exists. The classic expression of this belief was by Rene Descartes (d.1650): cogito ergo sum: “I think, therefore I am” (cf. Rodin’s sculpture; thinking is believing). The OT says in EX 3:14 that God is “I am” (the essence of existence).

2. (Objective) reality is subjectively known by seekers. David Hume (d. 1776) was a notable proponent of this opinion, and 2CR 5:7 expresses this truth by saying, “We live by faith, not by sight” (or proof, cf. 1CR 13:9&12 cited previously).

3. Reality is meaningful and communicable or able to be discussed rationally in fellowship with other truthseekers. As Isaiah 1:18a (c.735 B.C.) says, “Come now, let us reason together.” Perhaps whoever invented language should be regarded as the founder of this fact, because the discussion of reality uses language as the means, and in order to communicate sufficiently for attaining agreement or unity, it is necessary to have a common language and cultural context. (I hope that as Earthlings using English these needs are met for you and me:)

Having established three unavoidable or axiomatic beliefs, my intent now is to discuss the logical point from which the varieties of beliefs extant in the world diverge. Only the first student or one with a tabula rasa (blank slate)—like a newly sentient child—actually starts exploring reality from the beginning. (A pre-sentient infant in the womb is completely agnostic or without knowledge of every ism.) Nevertheless, in Part II the present study “begins” in the midst of this writer’s life and learning by seeking to assume the position or condition of adult innocence (unprejudice/lack of bias).
 

studier

Well-known member
Apr 18, 2024
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These three affirmations seem to be a priori truth or unavoidable (beginning) beliefs:

1. Truth or reality exists. The classic expression of this belief was by Rene Descartes (d.1650): cogito ergo sum: “I think, therefore I am” (cf. Rodin’s sculpture; thinking is believing). The OT says in EX 3:14 that God is “I am” (the essence of existence).

2. (Objective) reality is subjectively known by seekers. David Hume (d. 1776) was a notable proponent of this opinion, and 2CR 5:7 expresses this truth by saying, “We live by faith, not by sight” (or proof, cf. 1CR 13:9&12 cited previously).

3. Reality is meaningful and communicable or able to be discussed rationally in fellowship with other truthseekers. As Isaiah 1:18a (c.735 B.C.) says, “Come now, let us reason together.” Perhaps whoever invented language should be regarded as the founder of this fact, because the discussion of reality uses language as the means, and in order to communicate sufficiently for attaining agreement or unity, it is necessary to have a common language and cultural context. (I hope that as Earthlings using English these needs are met for you and me:)
So:
  1. The truth about loss of salvation exists.
  2. The truth about loss of salvation is subjectively known by seekers of the truth.
  3. The truth about loss of salvation is able to be discussed rationally and in fellowship with other truthseekers.
Correct?

How do you think this fits the reality of many discussions on this forum?
 
Oct 19, 2024
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So:
  1. The truth about loss of salvation exists.
  2. The truth about loss of salvation is subjectively known by seekers of the truth.
  3. The truth about loss of salvation is able to be discussed rationally and in fellowship with other truthseekers.
Correct?

How do you think this fits the reality of many discussions on this forum?
Discussions of ultimate reality beyond the undeniable axioms share subjective opinions/beliefs,
and salvation is the most important topic to discuss, if hell is true. Hence my emphasis on GRFS/the kerygma,
although most CC discussion is about didachaic doctrines, such as whether apostasy is possible.
 
Oct 19, 2024
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Yes, very important, most important, which is why I say this following the fifth point of the kerygma elaboration:

5. Then God’s Holy Spirit will establish a saving relationship with those who freely accept Him (RV 3:20) that will eventually achieve heaven when by means of persevering in learning Truth/God’s Word/sanctification everyone cooperates fully with His will (JN 14:6, 17&26, RM 8:6-17, GL 6:7-9, EPH 1:13-14, HB 10:36, 12:1, JM 1:2-4).

Although perfection is not achieved in this life, the necessity of learning the didache in order to strive for perfection indicates the need for perseverance or to keep on learning and growing spiritually until we die physically (PHP 3:12-14). Thus, although learning any specific part of the didache is not GRFS, a person who does not “hunger and thirst for righteousness” (MT 5:6) or want to learn “every word that comes from the mouth of God” (MT 4:4) fails the self-examination Paul commanded and Jesus implied (mentioned previously).

If we truly believe in Jesus as Christ, the One who represents God the Father, then we will also accept Him as Lord (LK 2:11) or God the Son (MT 16:16) or God in the human dimension (CL 2:9). When we truly accept Jesus as Lord, we will want to please Him by doing His will (MT 7:21, EPH 5:8-10). Learning the manifold teachings or doctrines describing God’s moral will takes a lifetime. Thus, the need for perseverance/loyalty/remaining faithful, which is as easy or simple as an act of will. Remain faithful until the end.

Paul taught the importance of continuing to learn God’s Word (LGW) in 2TM 3:14-17, saying “Continue in what you have learned and have been convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.”

Paul explained how LGW may be accomplished in EPH 4:11-13: “Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.” For those able to obtain a Bible (thanks to the invention of the printing press), much can be learned simply by reading it. It makes sense to start with a gospel, next read an epistle such as Ephesians, then Genesis to begin providing OT context for the NT Gospel, followed by Acts and Hebrews to learn how the church superseded the Torah. Romans 1&2 (creation and conscience) indicate how souls who had no opportunity to learn Scripture may be saved (called general revelation), Revelation describes the ultimate destiny of souls, and 1CR 15:14 admits that if Christ is not raised, then LGW about how to be saved is useless.

Part II: Need for Perseverance

The fifth point of the creed set forth in Part I warrants additional explanation. Just as unsaved sinners do not experience complete hell on earth, saved sinners/saints do not “live happily ever” on this earth when they repent of evil/Satanism. While we look forward to the proverbial “pie in the sky by and by”, we receive only a taste of heaven (HB 6:5) in the here and now. In order not to become discouraged, Christians need to understand that salvation has three stages or time components. They were saved from ultimate hell at the moment of deciding to accept Jesus as Lord (EPH 1:13, RV 3:20), they are (being) saved or perfected morally while remaining loyal to Jesus (JM 1:3-4), and they will be saved bodily on the day of resurrection (ZCH 14:1-9, 1THS 4:16, cf. 1CR 15:35-55).

The spiritual union between believers and Christ is comparable to marriage (EPH 5:23-32), and just as a husband and wife need to continue their commitment until they part at death, Christians also need to retain saving faith (LK 9:23, 2CR 4:16) as they grow spiritually, learning how to become more like Christ or achieve His fullness. Then they will neither take God’s grace for granted nor repent of their decision to serve Him as Lord. In other words, perseverance is an implicit and integral part of faith; Christians need to persevere in their acceptance of the kerygma and to keep on learning the didache until the day they die (MT 10:22, 2THS 1:3-5, 2PT 1:5-8).

Saying we “need” perseverance prompts this question: Is it possible for a Christian to repudiate his/her saving faith and become apostate or again bound for hell? Before seeking to answer this question, we should remember that although perseverance is an implicit part of the creed, understanding the details of this or any doctrine is not necessary in order to remain saved, because the kerygma is simple enough for a young soul to understand (cf. MT 18:3), and didachaic details can become rather complicated and controversial. Thus, a Christian needs to be humble or Spirit-filled before tackling such issues, keeping in mind that whichever position a Christian takes on any secondary doctrine, he/she should fellowship with those having a different interpretation who affirm the kerygma both verbally and by typically manifesting divine love.

The issue of apostasy has been debated ever since Augustine of Hippo developed his doctrine of predestination about A.D. 400. Romans 8:38-39 seems to say that it is impossible for a Christian to fail to persevere. Paul writes: “For I am convinced that neither death nor life… nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” We also read in John 10:27-29 that Jesus said, “My sheep listen to my voice… no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.” (Also, see RM 8:38-39, RM 14:4&10, 1CR 1:8, 10:12 & 15:5, 2CR 1:20-24, EPH 1:11-14, 1JN 2:19, PS 135:6 & PR 21:1.)

However, there are numerous verses in the NT which indicate that it is possible for a believer intentionally or willfully to separate him/herself from Christ (cf. GL 5:1 & RV 12:9). The classic passage that teaches the possibility of apostasy is Hebrews 6:4-6: “It is impossible for those who have… shared in the Holy Spirit… if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again.” Another verse in this vein is Galatians 5:4: “You who are trying to be justified by law… have fallen away from grace.” (The reader should also see RM 11:22, 1CR 15:2, CL 1:22-23, 2THS 1:4-5, 2TM 2:12, HB 3:6&14, 10:35-36, JM 1:12, 2PT 1:10-11, 2:20, 1JN 2:24-25 and RV 2:10. These Scriptures are quoted at the end of this part.)

Some Christians say that the biblical exhortations to persevere do not imply the possibility of apostasy but this interpretation is problematic for three reasons:

First, the plain sense of many verses of Scripture including those listed in the preceding parentheses suggests that it is possible for a believer to commit apostasy, and saying that this understanding is false seems to make God tricky.

Second, God’s plan of salvation from the miserable consequences of choosing to reject Him makes sense only if people are morally accountable or free, and free will is meaningful only if a person can choose between essentially opposite options, as in Deuteronomy 30:19: “I set before you today life and death, blessings and curses.” This is the same choice that was set before Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden (GN 2:16-17) and before that to Satan in heaven (LK 10:18). I see no reason to think that this choice is not eternal, because it is this choice which creates: free will (faith in Christ or antichrist), moral responsibility (love the Lord or hate Him) and meaningful life (taste of heaven now and hope for eternal joy rather than misery now and ultimately hell). And 1 Corinthians 13:13 says “these three remain”.

Third, Jesus said “The truth will set you free” (JN 8:32), and “If the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.” (JN 8:36) As a disciple of Christ I feel free, and I find every day fraught with significance as I fight on God’s side against evil in a war that has ultimate consequences for the destiny of my soul. Spiritual freedom is in Christ.

If Christians retain the same freedom they had as non-Christians to accept or reject Christ’s Lordship, then the second most important truth to learn in life after the Gospel/kerygma is the “necessity” of persevering in accepting Christ as Lord and in learning God’s Word (LGW) until we die in order to achieve our God-given purpose in life: the fullness of Christ or spiritual maturity. [LGW signifies this truth.]

The doctrine of perseverance or LGW serves as a bridge from the kerygma (creed) to the didache (lifelong spiritual growth) or from spiritual birth to maturity, so it is logical to harmonize various/diverse biblical statements on this issue before proceeding to other didachaic topics.
 

Inquisitor

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Mar 17, 2022
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Yes, very important, most important, which is why I say this following the fifth point of the kerygma elaboration:

5. Then God’s Holy Spirit will establish a saving relationship with those who freely accept Him (RV 3:20) that will eventually achieve heaven when by means of persevering in learning Truth/God’s Word/sanctification everyone cooperates fully with His will (JN 14:6, 17&26, RM 8:6-17, GL 6:7-9, EPH 1:13-14, HB 10:36, 12:1, JM 1:2-4).

Although perfection is not achieved in this life, the necessity of learning the didache in order to strive for perfection indicates the need for perseverance or to keep on learning and growing spiritually until we die physically (PHP 3:12-14). Thus, although learning any specific part of the didache is not GRFS, a person who does not “hunger and thirst for righteousness” (MT 5:6) or want to learn “every word that comes from the mouth of God” (MT 4:4) fails the self-examination Paul commanded and Jesus implied (mentioned previously).

If we truly believe in Jesus as Christ, the One who represents God the Father, then we will also accept Him as Lord (LK 2:11) or God the Son (MT 16:16) or God in the human dimension (CL 2:9). When we truly accept Jesus as Lord, we will want to please Him by doing His will (MT 7:21, EPH 5:8-10). Learning the manifold teachings or doctrines describing God’s moral will takes a lifetime. Thus, the need for perseverance/loyalty/remaining faithful, which is as easy or simple as an act of will. Remain faithful until the end.

Paul taught the importance of continuing to learn God’s Word (LGW) in 2TM 3:14-17, saying “Continue in what you have learned and have been convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.”

Paul explained how LGW may be accomplished in EPH 4:11-13: “Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.” For those able to obtain a Bible (thanks to the invention of the printing press), much can be learned simply by reading it. It makes sense to start with a gospel, next read an epistle such as Ephesians, then Genesis to begin providing OT context for the NT Gospel, followed by Acts and Hebrews to learn how the church superseded the Torah. Romans 1&2 (creation and conscience) indicate how souls who had no opportunity to learn Scripture may be saved (called general revelation), Revelation describes the ultimate destiny of souls, and 1CR 15:14 admits that if Christ is not raised, then LGW about how to be saved is useless.

Part II: Need for Perseverance

The fifth point of the creed set forth in Part I warrants additional explanation. Just as unsaved sinners do not experience complete hell on earth, saved sinners/saints do not “live happily ever” on this earth when they repent of evil/Satanism. While we look forward to the proverbial “pie in the sky by and by”, we receive only a taste of heaven (HB 6:5) in the here and now. In order not to become discouraged, Christians need to understand that salvation has three stages or time components. They were saved from ultimate hell at the moment of deciding to accept Jesus as Lord (EPH 1:13, RV 3:20), they are (being) saved or perfected morally while remaining loyal to Jesus (JM 1:3-4), and they will be saved bodily on the day of resurrection (ZCH 14:1-9, 1THS 4:16, cf. 1CR 15:35-55).

The spiritual union between believers and Christ is comparable to marriage (EPH 5:23-32), and just as a husband and wife need to continue their commitment until they part at death, Christians also need to retain saving faith (LK 9:23, 2CR 4:16) as they grow spiritually, learning how to become more like Christ or achieve His fullness. Then they will neither take God’s grace for granted nor repent of their decision to serve Him as Lord. In other words, perseverance is an implicit and integral part of faith; Christians need to persevere in their acceptance of the kerygma and to keep on learning the didache until the day they die (MT 10:22, 2THS 1:3-5, 2PT 1:5-8).

Saying we “need” perseverance prompts this question: Is it possible for a Christian to repudiate his/her saving faith and become apostate or again bound for hell? Before seeking to answer this question, we should remember that although perseverance is an implicit part of the creed, understanding the details of this or any doctrine is not necessary in order to remain saved, because the kerygma is simple enough for a young soul to understand (cf. MT 18:3), and didachaic details can become rather complicated and controversial. Thus, a Christian needs to be humble or Spirit-filled before tackling such issues, keeping in mind that whichever position a Christian takes on any secondary doctrine, he/she should fellowship with those having a different interpretation who affirm the kerygma both verbally and by typically manifesting divine love.

The issue of apostasy has been debated ever since Augustine of Hippo developed his doctrine of predestination about A.D. 400. Romans 8:38-39 seems to say that it is impossible for a Christian to fail to persevere. Paul writes: “For I am convinced that neither death nor life… nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” We also read in John 10:27-29 that Jesus said, “My sheep listen to my voice… no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.” (Also, see RM 8:38-39, RM 14:4&10, 1CR 1:8, 10:12 & 15:5, 2CR 1:20-24, EPH 1:11-14, 1JN 2:19, PS 135:6 & PR 21:1.)

However, there are numerous verses in the NT which indicate that it is possible for a believer intentionally or willfully to separate him/herself from Christ (cf. GL 5:1 & RV 12:9). The classic passage that teaches the possibility of apostasy is Hebrews 6:4-6: “It is impossible for those who have… shared in the Holy Spirit… if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again.” Another verse in this vein is Galatians 5:4: “You who are trying to be justified by law… have fallen away from grace.” (The reader should also see RM 11:22, 1CR 15:2, CL 1:22-23, 2THS 1:4-5, 2TM 2:12, HB 3:6&14, 10:35-36, JM 1:12, 2PT 1:10-11, 2:20, 1JN 2:24-25 and RV 2:10. These Scriptures are quoted at the end of this part.)

Some Christians say that the biblical exhortations to persevere do not imply the possibility of apostasy but this interpretation is problematic for three reasons:

First, the plain sense of many verses of Scripture including those listed in the preceding parentheses suggests that it is possible for a believer to commit apostasy, and saying that this understanding is false seems to make God tricky.

Second, God’s plan of salvation from the miserable consequences of choosing to reject Him makes sense only if people are morally accountable or free, and free will is meaningful only if a person can choose between essentially opposite options, as in Deuteronomy 30:19: “I set before you today life and death, blessings and curses.” This is the same choice that was set before Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden (GN 2:16-17) and before that to Satan in heaven (LK 10:18). I see no reason to think that this choice is not eternal, because it is this choice which creates: free will (faith in Christ or antichrist), moral responsibility (love the Lord or hate Him) and meaningful life (taste of heaven now and hope for eternal joy rather than misery now and ultimately hell). And 1 Corinthians 13:13 says “these three remain”.

Third, Jesus said “The truth will set you free” (JN 8:32), and “If the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.” (JN 8:36) As a disciple of Christ I feel free, and I find every day fraught with significance as I fight on God’s side against evil in a war that has ultimate consequences for the destiny of my soul. Spiritual freedom is in Christ.

If Christians retain the same freedom they had as non-Christians to accept or reject Christ’s Lordship, then the second most important truth to learn in life after the Gospel/kerygma is the “necessity” of persevering in accepting Christ as Lord and in learning God’s Word (LGW) until we die in order to achieve our God-given purpose in life: the fullness of Christ or spiritual maturity. [LGW signifies this truth.]

The doctrine of perseverance or LGW serves as a bridge from the kerygma (creed) to the didache (lifelong spiritual growth) or from spiritual birth to maturity, so it is logical to harmonize various/diverse biblical statements on this issue before proceeding to other didachaic topics.
Both divine determinism and freewill are in the N.T.
 

Musicmaster

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Feb 8, 2021
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What you're referring to as the victim card is simply your assertion of how you want to view things. Some of us may simply not want to play your ranting games.

I don't recall having seen much use and analysis of Scripture in your rants.

If you want to be challenged as you say, then let's get into some Scripture and see if we can all learn something on topic.

If you want to be challenged for your "juvenality" of playing tough guy via rants, you win (while some of us would not see it as a win for you or anyone).
You mistakenly labeled my exasperation at such blatant blaming of Paul for allegedly perpetrating an inappropriate conveyance by leaving out one of the two critical elements many assume assume are requirements for salvation upon us today in his writing.

You offered no proof that he had not also spoken the same exact message to the Corinthian believers prior to his writing to them.

We have no reason to believe that his initial spoken message was not the same as what he had written.

Both Acts 2 and 1 Cor. 15:1-4 were both in the discussion, and you departed wildly from the rational nature of the discussion by suggesting a breach of trust in the written word of God from a man who stated that ALL scripture is good for teaching, reproach, rebuke exhortation, et al.

Now, pray tell, why would you take such exception to someone calling you out on that? Calling you out doesn't equate to a rant. You can't see my facial expressions nor hear my vocal inflections, and to assume "rant" into it, that's highly subjective.

The references are there, and I'm still waiting for you to address those without all the emotive analysis, if you will.

If not, then it is what it is.

MM
 
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Luke 22 verse 42 “Father, if You are willing, take this cup from Me. Yet not My will, but Yours be done.” John 12 verses 27-28 "Now My soul is troubled, and what shall I say? ‘Father, save Me from this hour’? No, it is for this purpose that I have come to this hour. Father, glorify Your name!” Then a voice came from heaven: “I have glorified it, and I will glorify it again.”
 

Inquisitor

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Mar 17, 2022
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Yes, and both may be harmonized by understanding that God determines to grace humans
with the ability/will to seek Him--or not.
Revelation 3:4-6
But you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; and they will walk with Me in white,
for they are worthy. He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name
from the book of life
, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. He who has an ear,
let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

As long as that harmonization includes the possibility of someone's name being erased.
 

studier

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Apr 18, 2024
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You mistakenly labeled my exasperation at such blatant blaming of Paul for allegedly perpetrating an inappropriate conveyance by leaving out one of the two critical elements many assume assume are requirements for salvation upon us today in his writing.

You offered no proof that he had not also spoken the same exact message to the Corinthian believers prior to his writing to them.

We have no reason to believe that his initial spoken message was not the same as what he had written.

Both Acts 2 and 1 Cor. 15:1-4 were both in the discussion, and you departed wildly from the rational nature of the discussion by suggesting a breach of trust in the written word of God from a man who stated that ALL scripture is good for teaching, reproach, rebuke exhortation, et al.

Now, pray tell, why would you take such exception to someone calling you out on that? Calling you out doesn't equate to a rant. You can't see my facial expressions nor hear my vocal inflections, and to assume "rant" into it, that's highly subjective.

The references are there, and I'm still waiting for you to address those without all the emotive analysis, if you will.

If not, then it is what it is.

MM
The only emotional exasperation is coming from you. As is some odd allegation of me blaming Paul for something.

What exactly are you promoting yourself about in regard to "calling [me] out"? What precisely sent you into your emotional tirade?

Bottom line it for me apart from all your Two-Gospel Hyperdispensational emotional nonsense and use some Scripture to make your point.
 
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USA-TX
Revelation 3:4-6
But you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; and they will walk with Me in white,
for they are worthy. He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name
from the book of life
, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. He who has an ear,
let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

As long as that harmonization includes the possibility of someone's name being erased.
He who does not overcome will be erased.