GRACE VS LAW OR GRACE WITH LAW ?

You talk… and reason… in circles. Your “salvation” is meaningless.

You can't obey God's 613 laws ---you are a flawed human being and James says it very clearly ----IF YOU BREAK 1---- ONLY ONE LAW YOU BROKE THEM ALL ------

The law brought sin and Death ---the CURSE ------Jesus came to FULFIL the LAWS TO BRING BACK LIFE AND THE BLESSINGS ------


______THE LAW IS NOT FOR THE RIGHTEOUS _____KNOW YOUR SCRIPTURES ----

1 Timothy 1:8-11 New Living Translation (NLT)

For the law was not intended for people who do what is right. It is for people who are lawless and rebellious, who are ungodly and sinful, who consider nothing sacred and defile what is holy, who kill their father or mother or commit other murders.

NO____AGAIN YOUR WRONG -------THERE IS A NEW COMMAND NOW __straight from Jesus __WE ARE TO FOLLOW IT _____not the laws


John 13:34-35 Amplified Bible, Classic Edition====

34 I give you a new commandment: that you should love one another. Just as I have loved you, so you too should love one another.

35 By this shall all [men] know that you are My disciples, if you love one another [if you keep on showing love among yourselves].


AGAPE IS THE ONLY LAW NOW ______and to have Agape you need the indwelling of the Holy Spirit because this LOVE is a FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT ------

Which from your posts here you are spreading doubt that you have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as you PREACH ANOTHER GOSPEL -----

and God sends out warnings about people who Preach another Gospel ------let them be accursed

Galatians 1:8 ----read carefully -----there is no other interpretation for this either -----it plainly says what it says -------

AMPC
But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to and different from that which we preached to you, let him be accursed (anathema, devoted to destruction, doomed to eternal punishment)!

Okay thank you for your opinions, you do as you do, thank you as you are
Hope I tis well in your soul

Interesting argument you pose.

How about we have a look at a paragraph in Romans 7:4-6.

Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

To whom is Paul addressing this paragraph ("my brethren") the Jews, Gentiles, or both Jews and Gentiles?

Take your time Soyeong.

I have a couple of questions for you, and I would appreciate it if you could give straightforward simple answers of no more than two lines each:

From what are we saved?

To what are we saved?

The Law of God leads us to do what is godly, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12) while the law of sin leads us in the opposite direction by staring up sinful passion in order to bear fruit unto death (Romans 7:5), so Paul is contrasting the two laws throughout this passage. In Romans 6:14, Paul described the law that we are not under as being a law where sin had dominion over us, which does not describe the Law of God, but rather that is the role of the law of sin. In Roman 6:15, being under grace does not mean that we are permitted to sin, and in 1 John 3:4, sin is the transgression of the Law of God, so we are still under it. In Romans 6:16, we are slaves to the one that we obey, either of the law of sin, which leads to death, or obedience to the Law of God, which leads to righteousness. In Romans 6:16-18, we have been set free from the law of sin in order to become slaves of righteousness. In Romans 6:19-23. we are no longer to present ourselves as slaves to impurity, lawlessness, and sin, but are now to present ourselves as slaves to God and to righteousness leading to sanctification, and the goal of sanctification is eternal life in Christ, which is the gift of God, so being a doer of the Law of God is His gift of eternal life.

So Romans 7:1-6 should not be interpreted as saying that we need to die to God's gift of eternal life and go back to being slaves to impurity, lawlessness, and sin. In Romans 7:1-4, at no point was the woman set free from the Law of God, so there is nothing that leads to the conclusion that in the same way we have been set free from it. In Romans 7, Paul said that the Law of God is good, that he wanted to do good, that he delighted in obeying it, and that he served it with his mind, but contrasted it with the law of sin that was working within his members to cause him not to do the good that he wanted to do, which was waging war against the law of his mind, which held him captive, and which he served with his flesh.

It would be absurd to interpret Romans 7:4 as saying that we need to die to God's word in order to be married to God's word made flesh, but rather we need to die to the law of sin that was hindering us from obeying God's word. Likewise, it would be absurd to think that we need to die to God's instructions for how to bear fruit for Him in order to be free to bear fruit for Him instead of dying to the law of sin that was hindering us from bear. It would also be absurd to interpret Romans 7:5 as referring to the Law of God as if Paul delighted in stirring up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death or to interpret Romans 7:6 as if Paul delighted in being held captive to sin, but rather it is the law of sin that he described as holding him captive (Romans 7:22-23).

Both.

n James 2:1-11, he was speaking to people who had sinned by committing favoritism, so he was not telling them that he needed to have perfect obedience because that would have already been too late and he was not discouraging them from trying to keep God's law, but rather he was encouraging them to repent and obey God's law more consistently.

The law brought sin and Death ---the CURSE ------Jesus came to FULFIL the LAWS TO BRING BACK LIFE AND THE BLESSINGS ------

Click to expand...

In Romans 10:5-8, it refers to Deuteronomy 30:11-20 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to proclaiming that obedience to God's law brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! Jesus fulfilled the law by teaching us how to correctly obey it.

Those who say that the law is only for the lawless in order to justify their freedom to be lawless thereby become someone that the law is for. For someone to have a character trait means that they are a doer of that trait, so for someone to be courageous means that they are a doer of courageous works, but you are twisting that passage as if it were saying that doing courageous works is not for the courageous. In Isaiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose heart is God's law, and in 1 John 3:4-7, everyone who is a doer of righteous works in obedience to God's law is righteous even as they are righteous. Instructions for how to do something are not made for the experts, but rather they are made to teach those who don't know how to do that.

Everything in God's law is either in regard to how to love Him or how to love our neighbor, which is why Jesus said that those are the greatest two commandments and that all of the other commandments hang on them, so the position that we should obey the greatest two commandments is also the position that we should obey the commandments that hang on them. For example, if we love God and our neighbor, then we won't commit adultery, theft, murder, idolatry, kidnapping, rape, favoritism, and so forth for the rest of God's laws. It would be contradictory to want to follow God's command to love instead of God's other commands for how to do that. The greatest it two commandments at a lot easier said than done, so thankfully God gave us the rest of His commandments to flesh out what it looks like to correctly obey them. Someone who was correctly living in obedience to the greatest two commandments would be indistinguishable from someone who was correctly living in obedience to the rest of God's commandments because they would both be following the same example that Jesus set for us to follow.

In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and God's law was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel of the Kingdom. Moreover, Paul also taught the Gospel of the Kingdom based on God's law (Acts 14:21-22. 20:24-25, 28:23, Romans 15:4, 18-19), so you should not try to turn Galatians 1:8 against the Gospel of the Kingdom that both Jesus and Paul taught.

Here is another case where both-and logic is needed: Our goal or hope is BOTH heaven AND moral maturity on earth.
IOW, seeking/desiring joy in heaven is the proper motivation for enduring suffering on earth as we strive toward moral perfection.
(Read all of PHP :^)

I asked you whom Paul was addressing in Romans 7 to which you replied, both.

Now have a look at the first verse in Romans 7

Or do you not know, brethren for I am speaking to those who know the law, that the law has jurisdiction
over a person as long as he lives?

The only people that would have some knowledge of the law of Moses would be the Jews.

The Gentiles in Rome would know that a country called Israel existed within the Roman Empire.

To expect the Gentiles in Rome to know the law would be a ridiculous assumption to make.

The Gentiles in Rome would be oblivious to the law of Moses, after all, they were under Roman law.

Further the Gentiles in Rome would not have had sufficient time to learn the law of Moses.

I don't think there is any doubt that Paul is directly addressing the Jews in Rome.

The problem with viewing the Mosaic Covenant as eternal is that Moses was unaware the Prophet who would come after him (per DT 18:15) would be raised up (DT 18:15) on a tree under God's curse for being found guilty (DT 21:22-23) of breaking the "eternal" Sabbath law (EX 31:14-17, LV 24:8) even though Moses said that Jews must listen to Him (DT 18:15) when that Prophet teaches God's truth that He is Lord of the Sabbath (MK 2:27-28) and what is lawful is to do good every day (MK 3:4), which goodness is summarized by the two greatest commandments: to love God, fellow man and oneself (MT 22:37-40), which Jesus called a new commandment (JN 13:34), and which Paul calls a new and better covenant (HB 7:22&8:6-8), citing the prophet Jeremiah (in JR 31:31).

Thus we see the need for systematic Bible study that harmonizes all relevant Scripture about a topic instead of engaging in proof-texting (TOJ #4).

did not read all the comments, however, it is Biblical that Grace (New Covenant) fulfilled Law (First Covenant). We are no longer under the Law of the First Covenant. We are, however, under the Law of Faith as stated by the Apostle Paul. The Law of Faith is the Law of the New Covenant for the Church today.

Romans, Chapter 3:

26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

29Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

30Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

31Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

No --WRONG AGAIN ------your WRONGS are more than your RIGHTS

---Jesus fulfilled it to break the Curse of the laws and bring back eternal life and the Blessings ----Jesus did not fulfil the laws so we could keep them -----as we are not perfect still ----every born again person will sin ===you still can't keep the laws ===the laws are perfect and the Holy Spirit will convict you with guilt in your mind when you sin ----so the Holy Spirit doesn't help you keep the laws ----the Holy Spirit will convict your mind when you do something that goes against the laws -----

AI

In the Bible, lying is generally viewed as a sin, with the Ten Commandments stating "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor," and other passages emphasizing the importance of truthfulness and honesty.

I say -------Ever told a lie -and we all HAVE ----and if you say NO then your deceiving yourself ------so if you have lied then you just broke all the laws ----and if your Born Again you will feels very badly after telling the lie and that is the Holy Spirit convicting you of your lying ---

I say -------Ever seen something your neighbour or your friend might have that you also would like to have ---And WE ALL HAVE -----if so the you just broke this law ---so you broke all the laws ---Break one law you break the all

AI
"Thou shalt not covet your neighbor's goods" from the Ten Commandments means to refrain from desiring or envying what belongs to others

And if you say NO I HAVE NEVER wanted something my neighbour or friend has that I would like to have -----then your deceiving yourself -------cause we all have done this at some point in our Born Again state ------

And Jesus said ---EVEN IF YOU THINK IT IN YOUR MIND ____YOU HAVE DONE IT ------so you are not able to keep the laws by Jesus Fulfilling the laws -----nor are you able to keep them by and through the Holy Spirit ----as His job is to convict the mind and make you remorseful for breaking the law -------

Jesus, Paul, Peter, and John proof-texted all the time. You can do that when you’ve walked with the Living God for some time.

What we need is for believers to recognize the spirit-filled elders in their midst.

No elder is pushing systematic Bible study. That only answers what the Word says. Spirit-led elders live out the Word (they become “studies of it”) and so they know what it means. Too much knowledge puffs up. The end result is another denomination.

It sounds like you are in a denomination following some elder instead of the teachings of God's Word
by Jesus, Paul, John and Peter (whose eldership I acknowledge in the Scripture I shared including TOJ #4) indicating the need
for systematic Bible study that harmonizes all relevant Scripture about a topic (instead of engaging in proof-texting),
which includes:

Moses was unaware the Prophet who would come after him (per DT 18:15) would be raised up (DT 18:15) on a tree under God's curse for being found guilty (DT 21:22-23) of breaking the "eternal" Sabbath law (EX 31:14-17, LV 24:8) even though Moses said that Jews must listen to Him (DT 18:15) when that Prophet teaches God's truth that He is Lord of the Sabbath (MK 2:27-28) and what is lawful is to do good every day (MK 3:4), which goodness is summarized by the two greatest commandments: to love God, fellow man and oneself (MT 22:37-40), which Jesus called a new commandment (JN 13:34), and which Paul calls a new and better covenant (HB 7:22&8:6-8), citing the prophet Jeremiah (in JR 31:31). So much for viewing the Mosaic Covenant as eternal.

I believe followers of Christ glorify God with the sanctification process through the works of the Holy Spirit in our lives. He changes our "want to's". Without His empowering work this would not be possible. Here, God in the Third Person is glorified and shows that sanctification is part of the gift of salvation and not earned(I Pet 1:2; II Thes 2:13). He provides what we need(discernment,
strength) to overcome sin and grow into holiness through obedience to the Word

By this time though, salvation has already been gained through our Receiving and Confession(Luke 23:39-43) of Jesus's work on the cross(Romans 10:9-10). We're not counting on sanctification to get us in, but instead we're enjoying it because that's getting us into a deeper relationship with God through becoming more like Christ(James 1:2-6) The Father seeing the Son in us through the work of the Holy Spirit within us seems to be the goal here
https://www.gotquestions.org/meaning-of-dross.html


If our obedience to the Law had any part in our salvation then part of that glory would separately belong to the Law, and of course the Law itself isn't God. And since the Law is not God, it would be considered a form of idolatry. But also for us to understand it is God, and God alone, who has this glory to share. It is not our work that obtains this glory but the work of the Father, Son and Spirit

Genesis 15:6; Exodus 20:25 Daniel 2:19-45(v34, v35, v44 & v45)....

"The Context: In Exodus 20, God is giving the Israelites the Ten Commandments and instructions for building a sanctuary (the Tabernacle)."

"The Meaning of Exodus 20:25: God instructs the people to build an altar of stones, but specifically prohibits using tools to shape the stones. If they use tools, the altar becomes defiled."

"The Connection to Salvation: The command not to use tools to shape the stones is a powerful symbol of God's grace and our inability to earn our salvation through our own efforts."

"God's Provision: The altar, in this context, represents God's provision and grace. God is providing the materials and the instructions for the people to build the altar, not the other way around."

"Our Dependence: By prohibiting the use of tools, God emphasizes that the people cannot contribute to the altar's construction, nor can they contribute to their own salvation. Salvation is a gift from God, not something we can earn."

"Tool as a Symbol: The tool represents our works, our efforts, our ability to shape or create something. God is saying that our works are insufficient to earn His favor or to earn salvation."

Daniel 2:19-45(v34, v35, v44 & v45)....

"The Dream and its Interpretation:
In Daniel 2, King Nebuchadnezzar has a dream of a giant statue made of different metals, representing successive world empires, which is then struck by a stone that grows to fill the earth. Daniel interprets this dream, saying that the stone represents a kingdom established by God that will destroy all other kingdoms and endure forever."

"The Stone as a Symbol of Christ's Kingdom:
Many Christians interpret the "stone cut out without hands" as a symbolic representation of Jesus Christ and his kingdom."

"The Kingdom's Establishment:
The stone's action of crushing the statue and becoming a great mountain signifies the establishment of God's kingdom, which will ultimately replace all earthly kingdoms."

"The Role of the Holy Spirit:
In Christian theology, the Holy Spirit plays a crucial role in the establishment and growth of God's kingdom, empowering believers to live according to God's will and spread the message of the gospel."

"Jesus' Resurrection and Kingdom:
The resurrection of Jesus is seen as the pivotal event that inaugurates the kingdom of God, and the Holy Spirit is sent to empower believers to live out the kingdom's values and spread its message."

Daniel 2:44-45:
"In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever." (Daniel 2:44, NIV)
"As you saw that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands and became a great mountain and filled the whole earth, so the great God has made known to the king what will come to pass after this." (Daniel 2:45, NIV)

My apologies Aaron56, I quoted you by mistake

You should not make assumptions. You are wrong on all accounts.

"Systematic Bible study" is how we get false doctrines like 7th Day Adventists. The practice begins with "We can figure this out ourselves using logic and reason and our knowledge of language". It's bereft of the need for the Spirit to reveal and understand.

Here is faith plus works for salvation:


When a person puts his trust in Christ for the forgiveness of his sins, he also stops working for his salvation. Here, the "work" that necessarily accompanies "faith" is a conscious decision to "cease from works".

While this "work" is not objectively visible to human onlookers, it is nevertheless imperative that we "be diligent to enter that rest" (Heb 4:11) because the thoughts and intents of our hearts are clearly seen by "Him to whom we must give account" (Heb 4:13).

Always glad to learn that I was wrong to think you were projecting your assumptions onto me. :^)

Systematic study does not guarantee infallible interpretation, but I doubt it was used by 7th Day Adventists.

Show me the Spirit's revelation without Scripture and I will show you a heresy in the making.

Dude. You mean for nearly all of the New Testament?

How are we to know whether to "shout from the roof tops" or to "go into our rooms and shut the door" if not for the Spirit? It's all Biblical but the Word is never preached in season without those who are sent to preach it.

The alternative is to get general morality instruction through the stories of historical people.