Understanding God’s election

Jhn 11:25 Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that is believing in me, though he died, yet shall he live:
Jhn 11:26 And whosoever is living and is believing in me shall never die. Do you believe this?


"whoever is living and is believing in me shall never die..." does not logically imply that ""fallen man has no ability to please God until a supernatural work has been performed in us." Noe]r does it inply in this context that being made spiritually alive precedes faith.

Jhn 11 is about physical resurrection, NOT spiritual regeneration.
I am the resurrection and the life: he that is believing in me when he dies shall yet live physically again when I return. And whosoever is living and is believing on me when I return shall never die physically, but will be changed and become immortal in the twinkling of an eye.

You are taking a passge that is about physical resurrection from the dead and spiritualising it without contextual warrant to produce a Calvinist rabbit out of a scriptural hat by sleight of hand.

Again you are spiritualising a prophecy about an eventual physical resurrection beyond its context, to force it into supporting your theories about regeneration of the spirit. God is speking about the physical resurrection of the dead in Ez. 37.

Nice word salad of contradictions. I'm afraid to ask from whence you got the dressing to try to make it more palatable.

So...when God sends the rains upon mankind in their season, as well as make the sun to shine in its season, that's the same kind of grace as man's "natural grace"? Or what about all of Jesus' gracious miracles: Are they, too, of the same nature as man's "natural grace"?

Re Jn 11: So...in your world Jesus was teaching this great pearl of wisdom in v. 26 that whoever is physically alive and believes in me will never die? IOW, Jesus' audience had no idea that one must be physically living in order to exercise faith? Anymore absurd opinions? Oh yeah...but you are right that Jn 11 isn't about spiritual regeneration; but it is about spiritual resurrection.

And you're dead wrong on Ezek 37! In fact, chapters 36 & 37 contain one large New Covenant prophecy of what God is going to do for the exiles in Babylon after they return to the Land. According to your interpretation, the exiles to whom Ezekiel was ministering and prophesying, would never come to saving knowledge of God until AFTER they died physically! These exiled Jews would never know that God is the LORD (YHWH) until AFTER their physical deaths. Talk about being a dollar short and a day late! And now you can add on top of all your errors that men can physically die without ever knowing God in this age because God will save them in the next age? And your error also implies that eternal life is not a reality in this age -- only in the next one -- only when men are physically raised from the dead. Yet, the very substance of life eternal in this age is having a true knowledge of the Father and Son!

John 17:3
3 Now this is eternal life : that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent
NIV

There is no second chance after physical death. Anyone who dies in this age without having saving knowledge of the Lord will be lost forever!

2 Thess 1:8-10a
8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people ....
NIV

John 3:19-20 and from Psalm 10:4 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of Light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come
into the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. The wicked reviles the Lord

2 Timothy 1:9~ He has saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works, but by His own purpose and by the grace He granted us in Christ Jesus before time began. Ephesians 1:4-5~ He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence. In love He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will. Ephesians 1:11~ In Him we were also chosen as God’s own, having been predestined according to the plan of Him who works out everything by the counsel of His will.

A man uses his limited power to express grace, to bless others, even those who may not deserve to be blessed. God uses His unlimited power to express grace, to bless others, even those who may not deserve to be blessed. It's the power that is different, not grace. Grace is using the power one has to bless others, regardless of whether they deserve to be blessed or not.

You are flailing. A prophesy about returning from Babylon somewhere in the same two chapters in Ezekiel as a prophecy about physical resurrection does not make the prophecy of physical resurrection into a prophecy about spiritual revival during the return from Babylon.

I am at a loss to understand what you are saying here, and how you derive that from my post. Are you able to explain your line of reasoning that gets you from my post to your comments here?

I'm not distinguishing between natural and supernatural grace as such because I'm not talking about the grace that man can demonstrate. We are talking about the grace of God in salvation. As far as I know there is no verse that has salvation coming by the grace of man. So this has no relevance to the discussion.

I'm distinguishing between grace that is common to mankind as a result of creation, and that which is not. For example, at the end of Matthew 5, common grace would include both rain and sunshine are for the evil and good, the just and the unjust. But everyone doesn't get saved. So there are some who do not experience the grace that attends salvation. It is not common to every individual.

All grace is supernatural whose source is God. Not all grace is common.

I have been meditating on this "fish in the sea" analogy for understanding the prepositions and cases in "saved in/by means of grace through faith". I would like to tweak it a little.

All fish, both the good and the predatory, live and move and have their being in the sea. The sea water is in this case analogous to God. We all, both good and evil, live and move and have our being in Him. Sea water is a complex mix of ingredients, God is a complex mix of attributes.
One ingredient of sea water is dissolved oxygen. Oxygen means life. One attribute of God is life.
The ubiquitous provision of this dissolved oxygen necessary to keep alive every creature in the sea, and all the other ingredients in the seawater that are ubiquitously available to sea creatures, whether a good serving pilot fish or a murderous predator, is like grace: the ubiquitous provision of life and intellect and emotions and sunshine and rain to both the just and the unjust.
And if access to this ubiquitous oxygen is stopped for some particular fish, by being hauled out of the sea by a hook and line for instance, that fish will die.

All fish live within the ubiquitous undifferentiated provision of ingredients of sea water. All humans live in the being of God, God's being includes all of God's attributes, which attributes are encompassing us and are available to us: that is, we all dwell in grace.

All fish are working within the sea water's ubiquitous provision of whatb they need for life. . All humans are working within God's gracious provision of life's necessities.

A small fish is susceptible to death, while alone and enjoying the ubiquitous provision of the open sea. A small fish being chased by a predator needs a place to hide. It may flee from the open sea into a thick kelp bed that hinders the larger predator and then exit the other side back into the open sea minus the pursuing predator. There is sea water in the open sea and also in the kelp bed.

Likewise a human is susceptible to death, while alone and enjoying the ubiquitous provision of God's blessings. A human also needs somewhere to go to escape from death. There is grace available to the person outside the faith, and the same grace is available to the one in the faith.

W can say of the fish that entered and left the kelp bed that it has been saved from death, both within and by means of the ubiquitous unrestricted unprejudiced characteristics of the sea that are available without distinction to both the small fish and the predator, and also through and by means of the kelp bed.
We can say of the person who entered the faith and then left the faith that they have been saved from death, both in/by means of grace (dative: tOi chariti) i.e. in/by means of God's ubiquitous unrestricted unprejudiced provision, and also through/by means of faith (dia tEs pistos).

The fish was working (swimming) in the open sea and it is working (swimming) in the kelp. It is working (swimming) wherever it is. It is not saved by swimming, but by where it chooses to swim. A fish entering the kelp and abiding in the kelp is being saved . A fish that enters the kelp and abides in the kelp and then leaves the kelp, has been saved. He could be saved again, if he returns to the kelp when it becomes aware again of a predator stalking it. Swimming within the kelp doed not save it. Being in the kelp is what saves it.
A person is working, whether outside of faith or in the faith. He is working wherever he is. He is not saved by working, but by where he chooses to work. The person entering the faith and abiding in the faith and then leaving the faith behind is someone who has been saved. They could be saved again later, if they return to the faith when they become aware again of death stalking them. A person who enters the faith and is abiding in the faith is being saved. Working in the faith does not save. Being in the faith is what saves us.

You are resorting to the logical fallacy of special pleading. You are claiming that grace, when applied to God, means something different from grace when applied to man, because God is a special case.
And you are pleading that the grace provided for believers must be different from the grace provided for unbelievers, because unbelievers do not receive all the grace that believers receive.

It could be that the same grace is available to all, but some choose not to avail themselves of all the grace available to them.

That they are permitted to return is the grace given them.

I'm simply employing the language of scripture. We are saved by grace. If you aren't saved, you haven't experienced the grace imparted during salvation. This doesn't mean that someone who isn't saved doesn't experience the grace of God, as was exemplified in Matthew 5, but it certainly means they haven't experienced the grace present in salvation.
The idea that someone has to avail themselves of grace escapes me. Either the grace exists or it does not. It doesn't exist because someone avails themselves of it. It exists because God performed and manifested it. The sun shines on the just and the unjust. This is a manifestation of grace. Likewise, salvation occurs when God manifests grace through faith.

You are employing the words of scripture. Engaging with the language of scripture entails more than just choosing the lexical meaning for each word that best fits one's prejudices, and then stringing those individual meanings together to say what one want's to hear.

A man can choose to sit in his damp dark squalid basement, or he can avail himself of the sunshine outside on the street. The man is not in cold darkness because God has not yet manifested His gracious sun for the man to experience. The man is in cold darkness because he is refusing to avail himself of what God's grace is providing for all.

And yet God's grace isn't manifested to all in salvation; for if it was, all would be saved. No one is not saved by the grace of God through faith. Everyone who is saved is saved by the grace of God through faith. Every single time the grace of God is manifested through faith, salvation is the result. So even if you believe common grace can be availed of or not, when grace is manifested through faith, it always results in salvation.

Your conclusion is based on your presupposing irresistible grace, which is not a verified premise. Many of us do not believe in your irresistible grace. If grace is not irresistible, then your division of grace into common and salvific faith-bearing grace is artificial and arbitrary.

Where is your scriptural proof that the grace that a man accessed to believe unto salvation was only made available to him by God at the time he believed and was withheld from Him and never available to the man before then?

Yes, but not necessarily a permanent choice. Like Saul/Paul, a person may become aware of Jesus long before they actually come to believe on Him.


I would say that a person who remains (in bible terms) "dead in trespasses and sins" won't even think to make such an argument. If they really want to choose/believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, that want is a result of God's work.

I take it to mean that there is absolutely nothing evil in God. Everything He does, thinks or says is perfect.

What woman who gave two shekels? I know about the woman who gave two mites:

“Then one poor widow came and threw in two mites, which make a quadrans.” (Mr 12:42 NKJV)

I understand that there were 384 mites needed to make one shekel.

Correct. God loves/initiates; souls reflect His love/cooperate--or not.