Understanding God’s election

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Jul 3, 2015
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Romans 12:6-8 We have different gifts according to the grace given us. If one’s gift is prophecy, let him use it in proportion to his faith; if it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach; 8if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is giving, let him give generously; if it is leading, let him lead with diligence; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully.
 

Cameron143

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And what is your evidence that "God doesn't require us to use of the ability to believe He gave us to use, and we used as children" ?



It's in/by means of grace ("chariti": dative case). Everything occurs in/by means of God's grace. The believing of a hindu child is in God's grace and by means of God's grace. Not everything that happens in grace, by means of grace, is God's will.
Although all things that occur are first the result of God's activity in creation, grace is a directed action of God independent of creation. Also, every action of God is not grace. When God condemns an individual, it is not an exhibition of grace. It is, rather, an exhibition of justice.

In your example, a Hindu child believing in what or whom? If it is belief in Christ, it is most certainly grace. If it is belief in another god, that is simply learned belief. There is grace extended by God in the ability to learn, which is common to most people. But it is not a grace being spoken of in salvation else faith in Christ would be it's end.
 

Mem

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Sep 23, 2014
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Sorry!
But I do not believe that fallen man has the ability to please God until a supernatural work has been performed in us.
Is this one of those "sorry, not sorry" kind of sentiments?

I consider the Holy Spirit an Helper sent by grace. An Helper can be thought of as an enabler, with all the nuances of what that implies. Of course, He'd refuse to enable our inclination toward the indulgences of our flesh, but that which pertains to our spirit, which includes a penchant to believe in that which we cannot see, that which pertains to faith.

I might abuse that influence on my grandchild's belief in monsters, for leverage to get her to come out of a room more willingly but, there really are no monsters in the closet. However, if she comes to any point of refusing to believe there is, indeed, no monsters, not even in the basement, I'd have to actually produce at least a baby monster to renew her faith in them, which I can't except by trickery.

Anyway, this tactic might backfire on me if at any time that I'd rather she didn't believe in monsters. All I'd have to benefit me then is the patience to intercept the exact moment that she might consider that, "There are no monsters" and emphatically exclaim in reply, "Amen!" That is what the Holy Spirit does in tandem to God's word.
 

Rufus

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If I thought you were truly interested, I might be inclined to discuss the material with you but if you were actually interested in finding it, you would find it yourself. It is the glory of God to hide a matter and the glory of kings to search it out. I will tell you that it says nothing about them waiting until He gives them faith.
Sir, I did not challenge or encourage you to read those four chapters in the OT because I'm unfamiliar with their content; but because you might be. But now that you have read those passages afresh, then we both know now that there are NO CONDITIONS for Israel to fulfill in those passages. Therefore, the promises made in those chapters are unilateral in nature, which is precisely why the New Covenant is unlike the Old!

What I bolded above is an odd statement since the promises were made in the context of prophecy! Those promises were to be fulfilled after God returned exiled Israel to their land. So, yes, Israel had to wait until God fulfilled his promises! Moreover, if Israel could conjure up their own faith, why would God need to give them that gift?
 

Rufus

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Forbearance is grace, does not mean all grace is forbearance.
Oh...only the grace that you say is "forbearance" when you don't want the word to mean what it normally means! But if a writer meant "forbearance", why didn't he simply say that? There are no Gr. terms for "forbearance" or "patience" or "longsuffering"?
 

PaulThomson

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Oct 29, 2023
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PaulThomson said:
And what is your evidence that "God doesn't require us to use of the ability to believe He gave us to use, and we used as children" ?

It's in/by means of grace ("chariti": dative case). Everything occurs in/by means of God's grace. The believing of a hindu child is in God's grace and by means of God's grace. Not everything that happens in grace, by means of grace, is God's will.

Although all things that occur are first the result of God's activity in creation, grace is a directed action of God independent of creation. Also, every action of God is not grace. When God condemns an individual, it is not an exhibition of grace. It is, rather, an exhibition of justice.

In your example, a Hindu child believing in what or whom? If it is belief in Christ, it is most certainly grace. If it is belief in another god, that is simply learned belief. There is grace extended by God in the ability to learn, which is common to most people. But it is not a grace being spoken of in salvation else faith in Christ would be it's end.
What is your evidence that "grace is a directed action of God independent of creation"?

"In grace" is not the same as "grace". "By mans of grace" is not the same as "grace".

What is your evidence that "grace extended by God in the ability to learn, is not the same grace being spoken of in salvation, else faith in Christ would be its end?

That would be like saying "listening for the sound of a bird in the bushes is not the same as listening being spoken of in listening for the sound of a child crying in the room next door, else listening for child crying would be its end. Actually, it's the same ears and the same listening ability an skill used in both. Only the object of the listening is different.
 

PaulThomson

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BillyBob said:
Sorry!
But I do not believe that fallen man has the ability to please God until a supernatural work has been performed in us.

PaulThomson said:
But what is the evidence upon which you believe that?

John 11:26a
26 and whoever lives and believes in me will never die...

NIV

Life, biblically and logically precedes faith, since the Dead have no spiritual ability to please God.
Jhn 11:25 Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that is believing in me, though he died, yet shall he live:
Jhn 11:26 And whosoever is living and is believing in me shall never die. Do you believe this?


"whoever is living and is believing in me shall never die..." does not logically imply that ""fallen man has no ability to please God until a supernatural work has been performed in us." Noe]r does it inply in this context that being made spiritually alive precedes faith.
 

PaulThomson

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Oh...only the grace that you say is "forbearance" when you don't want the word to mean what it normally means! But if a writer meant "forbearance", why didn't he simply say that? There are no Gr. terms for "forbearance" or "patience" or "longsuffering"?
Sucrose is sugar does not mean all sugar is sucrose.

Likewise, God's forbearance toward sinners is grace, does not mean that all God's grace is summed up in forbearance toward sinners.

You still haven't opened a page on logic?
 

rogerg

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What is your evidence that "grace is a directed action of God independent of creation"?

[Eph 1:3-7 KJV]
3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
 

Cameron143

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PaulThomson said:
And what is your evidence that "God doesn't require us to use of the ability to believe He gave us to use, and we used as children" ?

It's in/by means of grace ("chariti": dative case). Everything occurs in/by means of God's grace. The believing of a hindu child is in God's grace and by means of God's grace. Not everything that happens in grace, by means of grace, is God's will.



What is your evidence that "grace is a directed action of God independent of creation"?

"In grace" is not the same as "grace". "By mans of grace" is not the same as "grace".

What is your evidence that "grace extended by God in the ability to learn, is not the same grace being spoken of in salvation, else faith in Christ would be its end?

That would be like saying "listening for the sound of a bird in the bushes is not the same as listening being spoken of in listening for the sound of a child crying in the room next door, else listening for child crying would be its end. Actually, it's the same ears and the same listening ability an skill used in both. Only the object of the listening is different.
Ephesians 1:4. The choosing was done before time began. It's not subject to creation.
Also, your example is fine in the natural realm. But biblical hearing doesn't come naturally. Hearing comes by the word of God. That doesn't mean hearing the words of scripture is in view. Otherwise, everyone would be saved who heard a reading of scripture. This obviously isn't the case. Rather, there is power in the word of God as Paul says in Romans 1. But it is only powerful for those who believe. So that power is only demonstrated to those who the grace wrought faith.
 

studier

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While we have a couple of Greek and Hebrew wordsmiths in residence, @PaulThomson and @studier, I don't want to risk the chance of missing the opportunity to ask their opinion (especially as recent as just now seeing that one expressed the wear on him). I'm interested in looking at the phrase regarding salvation "by grace through faith" with special attention to the words "by" and "through" since it is otherwise that, usually, the words "grace" and "faith" that get all the attention.
Hi Mem:

Thanks for flagging me. It looks like @PaulThomson ("PT") has provided quite a bit of guidance so I'll approach it from a bit of a different angle which will overlap a bit with his work. I'm basically going to show what is involved in the choices a translator must make in determining how to translate just these 2 seemingly simple phrases:

I wish I could simplify this but it's ultimately not so simple and I am always looking and relooking at translations in part because of things the following will show. This will just deal with {by] grace:

NKJ Ephesians 2:8 For [by] grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God
  • I've bracketed [by] because the word is not in the Greek Text. It's been added by the translators. "grace" as PT I think has identified is a noun in what's called the Dative case. From Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, here is a list of what must be considered in regard to how the word is used in the sentence and context the translator needs to consider in adding a word such as [by]. Each one of these classifications has a different word or phrase associated with it to fill in the brackets and even then, the translator can be flexible to get the point across as he understands the author.
Pure Dative Uses

1. Dative Indirect Object

2. Dative of Interest (including Advantage [commodi] and Disadvantage [incommodi])

3. Dative of Reference/Respect

4. Ethical Dative

5. Dative of Destination

6. Dative of Recipient

7. Dative of Possession

8. Dative of Thing Possessed

9. Predicate Dative

10. Dative in Simple Apposition

Local Dative Uses

1. Dative of Place

2. Dative of Sphere

3. Dative of Time (when)

4. Dative of Rule

Instrumental Dative Uses

1. Dative of Association

2. Dative of Manner (or Adverbial Dative)

3. Dative of Means/Instrument

4. Dative of Agency

5. Dative of Measure/Degree of Difference

6. Dative of Cause

7. Cognate Dative

8. Dative of Material

9. Dative of Content

The Uses of the Dative After Certain Words

1. Dative Direct Object

2. Dative After Certain Nouns

3. Dative After Certain Adjectives

4. Dative After Certain Prepositions


Here's a bit of basic instruction to help understand how the Dative case is used:

In connection with this, Chamberlain (although he holds to the eight-case system) gives a very helpful exegetical tip:​
When the interpreter is confronted with a “dative” form, he should remember that any one of three basic ideas may be expressed by this case-form:​
1. The idea of place​
2. The idea of the instrument​
3. The true dative​
A good passage upon which to test this is: τῇ γὰρ ἐλπίδι ἐσώθημεν (Rom 8:24). Does Paul mean to say “We are saved by hope” (instrumental), “in hope” (locative), or “to” (or “for”) “hope” (dative)? If the case is [pure] dative, hope is, in a sense, personified and becomes the end of salvation rather than a means to that end. If the case is locative, hope is regarded as the sphere in which salvation occurs. If the case is instrumental, hope is considered as a means used in saving men. The only scientific way in which to decide this sort of question is to appeal to the Pauline viewpoint as reflected in the New Testament.​
Therefore, within the five-case system, the dative case may be defined as the case of personal interest, reference/respect (pure dative), position (locative), and means (instrumental).​
Whatever the translators (most of whom insert "by") have determined, they are classifying "grace" under the "Instrumental" category. Most simply they are saying the instrument or means God used to save is [His] grace. We may refine the wording a bit. It would be nice if translators specified exactly what they mean with an expanded phrase like "by means of" but these translations rarely if ever get so specific or commit to such specificity. As you can see, there are several other words we could consider inserting even if we remained under the Instrumental category.

I've underlined a sentence above to show what we're really dealing with. These translational choices ultimately need to fit with the viewpoint of the author and ultimately the AUTHOR of the Text.
 

Rufus

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BillyBob said:
Sorry!
But I do not believe that fallen man has the ability to please God until a supernatural work has been performed in us.

PaulThomson said:
But what is the evidence upon which you believe that?



Jhn 11:25 Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that is believing in me, though he died, yet shall he live:
Jhn 11:26 And whosoever is living and is believing in me shall never die. Do you believe this?


"whoever is living and is believing in me shall never die..." does not logically imply that ""fallen man has no ability to please God until a supernatural work has been performed in us." Noe]r does it inply in this context that being made spiritually alive precedes faith.
Yeah, it does! Jesus knew that just as the physically dead have no physical ability, likewise neither do the spiritually dead have any spiritual ability. This is why he made the point the way he did. And Jesus' logic and theology squares with New Covenant promises.

Ezek 37:1-6
37:1 The hand of the LORD was upon me, and he brought me out by the Spirit of the LORD and set me in the middle of a valley; it was full of bones. 2 He led me back and forth among them, and I saw a great many bones on the floor of the valley, bones that were very dry. 3 He asked me, "Son of man, can these bones live?"

I said, "O Sovereign LORD, you alone know."

4 Then he said to me, "Prophesy to these bones and say to them, 'Dry b
I will put brones, hear the word of the LORD! 5 This is what the Sovereign LORD says to these bones: I will make breath enter you, and you will come to life. 6 I will attach tendons to you and make flesh come upon you and cover you with skin; I will put breath in you, and you will come to life. Then you will know that I am the LORD.'"
NIV

And the Lord strongly reinforced the teaching above by essentially repeating it through his prophet. I suspect He wanted to drive the point home!

Ezek 37:11-13
11 Then he said to me: "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They say, 'Our bones are dried up and our hope is gone; we are cut off.' 12 Therefore prophesy and say to them: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: O my people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel.
13 Then you, my people, will know that I am the LORD, when I open your graves and bring you up from them
NIV

But twice wasn't enough! To really hammer the point home to stubborn, obstinate, stiff-necked, hard-hearted, spiritually-uncircumcised people, the Lord continued:

Ezek 37:14
14 I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land.
Then you will know that I the LORD have spoken, and I have done it, declares the LORD.'"
NIV

So...FIRST the Lord instills in his chosen people the Spirit of Life, which of course imparts life to dead souls, and then after life is in a soul people come to saving knowledge of the Lord! All in this logical and theologically correct order. Of course, the first promise of the Holy Spirit came in the preceding chapter, and is all part of the New Covenant which is why God reiterated this important point (v. 26).

How can anyone here with a straight face and a modicum of honesty in their souls deny that these passages do not infer that God's grace is efficacious?
 

PaulThomson

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Doesn't change anything. Grace is supernatural regardless of the means.
Grace/favour is not supernatural. Man can bestow grace. God can bestow grace. God's 's grace is supernatural because it is God's grace and God is supernatural. Every attribute of God is supernatural. Man's grace is natural because man is natural. A regenerate man's grace is supernatural to the degree that God is participating in producing it. But grace is grace, whether supernatural or human. The language of scripture does not distinguish supernatural grace from human grace the way you are doing to make your theological stance seem logical.