Grace

This quote is ascribed to C.S. Lewis “Without God’s grace, there would not be Jesus Christ. Without grace, there would be no resurrection. Without grace, there would not be a plan of salvation. All of these are the effects of God’s grace.”

I agree with Lewis. Let me take it more in depth and say what grace does.

Grace is getting what we need (heaven) instead of what we deserve (hell). Paul linked grace and obedience together (Titus 2:11–12)

God has given us a way to be saved, and tells us how. We did nothing to earn or deserve it. God provided us a way to be saved anyway. That’s grace.

Jesus is “the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him” (Hebrews 5:9). Obedience is lovingly submitted to God. It affirms our devotion to Him. It is humble, loving submission to God’s will. Living a Christian life affirms our love to Christ (John 14:15, 15:14). It affirms our devotion to Him. His love compels us (2 Cor. 5:14) to do so and God’s grace is the instructor (Titus 2:11-12).

God has a will for man to obey to be saved. As we do His will, it is obeying the work OF God. They are His works, which He gives to us to do. Those works are designed by HIM, NOT US. We are NOT saving ourselves by ourselves when we obey God’s divine authoritative commands.

Take away God’s grace, and have nothing but obedience. Will obedience alone save someone? No, because no one can obey perfectly. Take away obedience and have nothing but God’s grace. Will God’s grace alone save someone? No, because one must obey the gospel (2 Thess 1:8) and one must not live in sin to be saved (Rom. 6:1; Col. 3:5-7, etc etc). So, to be saved by grace you must obey (Heb. 5:9). God did His part by giving grace, and we must do our part to access by faith this His grace to be saved by grace (Rom. 5:2; Acts 2:38; Eph 2:8; Heb. 5:9).

Obedience to the faith isn’t saving ourselves. We don’t wash our sins away ourselves. Someone else did that for us out of love. That is purely by grace. Grace is a gift of love from God. It did not come from ourselves, but God. We didn’t take our sins away when we obeyed. It was someone else, and that is purely by grace.

When we sin, there is nothing we devise to reconcile ourselves back to God. There’s nothing we can devise of our own accord to fix that bridge.

There is nothing we can do that gets around what Jesus did. All of our obedience doesn’t circumvent the cross of Christ or the resurrection. Obeying is looking to HIM for salvation instead of looking to SELF. It’s continuing to look to HIM. It’s being submissive. Does it, in any way, take away from Jesus, when we obey…JESUS??

We did not invent the commands for how to be saved. We are just doing what we are told. Even when we do good works that is letting our light shine so that others sees Christ in us (Matt. 5:16). It’s letting the gospel light of Christ flow from our hearts and souls. Saving faith is the act of putting all of our trust in Christ alone for our everlasting salvation.It’s not in ourselves, or our good works. It’s in Christ (Acts 4:12). It’s when we allow Christ to reign as King and Lord in our lives, depending on Him by continuing to submit and look to Him in reverential fear as we desire to please Him. It’s when we allow the Spirit’s message to live and transform our mind by conforming to His sword, instead of the world (Eph. 6:17, Rom. 12:2). All of this is doing the Father’s will. Godhead is one in essence, nature and unity. Obedience to God is throwing ourselves on God’s mercy and grace. God gets all the glory. All glory for salvation goes to God.

Paul tells us how we are saved by grace and justified: Through/by faith. James tells us when we are saved by grace and justified by faith to be declared/made right in the sight of God: By having a faith that obeys/works the commandments/works that God has authorized.

These works/commandments to be saved by grace through faith were not of ourselves. But of God. Everything which God has revealed to us through His word to be saved is grace. It’s dripping with grace and love. The fact we have the Bible is grace.

God’s grace tells us that we can’t live in sin any longer (Rom. 6:1). It teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts, and teaches us to live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world (Titus 2:12).

This next part is from Randall Caselman “Mercy is Jesus seeing our sin condition. As He passed by, He saw a man blind from birth. Jesus saw a man in need: a man who could do nothing to help himself, a man whose condition was desperate, helpless, hopeless. Hundreds, perhaps thousands, of people had passed by this man without paying any attention to him. He had become a fixture on their way to Sabbath Worship. What we casually overlook, or deliberately ignore, Jesus sees! Jesus sees us blinded from the light, lost in sin. God looks at us, not as we are, but as we could be. Praise God for this! Amen? Grace is His offer of healing. Jesus commanded: "Go, wash. He went and came seeing!" There was nothing special about the clay with which Jesus anointed his eyes or the water in which he washed. The Pool of Siloam was simply the answer of a good conscience to do what Jesus asked for his healing, his salvation. It was his pool of Grace. This has an obvious spiritual application for us. "In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace" (Ephesians 1.7). "You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ" (Galatians 3.26-27).
Mercy and Grace flow from God, originate in Him, flow through Jesus to those who will believe and obey Him. “Grace and peace from Jesus Christ, who loves us, has freed us from our sins by his blood. He has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve His God and Father. To him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen” (Paraphrase of Revelation 1.4-6).”

This quote is ascribed to C.S. Lewis “Without God’s grace, there would not be Jesus Christ. Without grace, there would be no resurrection. Without grace, there would not be a plan of salvation. All of these are the effects of God’s grace.”

I agree with Lewis. Let me take it more in depth and say what grace does.

Grace is getting what we need (heaven) instead of what we deserve (hell). Paul linked grace and obedience together (Titus 2:11–12)

God has given us a way to be saved, and tells us how. We did nothing to earn or deserve it. God provided us a way to be saved anyway. That’s grace.

Jesus is “the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him” (Hebrews 5:9). Obedience is lovingly submitted to God. It affirms our devotion to Him. It is humble, loving submission to God’s will. Living a Christian life affirms our love to Christ (John 14:15, 15:14). It affirms our devotion to Him. His love compels us (2 Cor. 5:14) to do so and God’s grace is the instructor (Titus 2:11-12).

God has a will for man to obey to be saved. As we do His will, it is obeying the work OF God. They are His works, which He gives to us to do. Those works are designed by HIM, NOT US. We are NOT saving ourselves by ourselves when we obey God’s divine authoritative commands.

Take away God’s grace, and have nothing but obedience. Will obedience alone save someone? No, because no one can obey perfectly. Take away obedience and have nothing but God’s grace. Will God’s grace alone save someone? No, because one must obey the gospel (2 Thess 1:8) and one must not live in sin to be saved (Rom. 6:1; Col. 3:5-7, etc etc). So, to be saved by grace you must obey (Heb. 5:9). God did His part by giving grace, and we must do our part to access by faith this His grace to be saved by grace (Rom. 5:2; Acts 2:38; Eph 2:8; Heb. 5:9).

Obedience to the faith isn’t saving ourselves. We don’t wash our sins away ourselves. Someone else did that for us out of love. That is purely by grace. Grace is a gift of love from God. It did not come from ourselves, but God. We didn’t take our sins away when we obeyed. It was someone else, and that is purely by grace.

When we sin, there is nothing we devise to reconcile ourselves back to God. There’s nothing we can devise of our own accord to fix that bridge.

There is nothing we can do that gets around what Jesus did. All of our obedience doesn’t circumvent the cross of Christ or the resurrection. Obeying is looking to HIM for salvation instead of looking to SELF. It’s continuing to look to HIM. It’s being submissive. Does it, in any way, take away from Jesus, when we obey…JESUS??

We did not invent the commands for how to be saved. We are just doing what we are told. Even when we do good works that is letting our light shine so that others sees Christ in us (Matt. 5:16). It’s letting the gospel light of Christ flow from our hearts and souls. Saving faith is the act of putting all of our trust in Christ alone for our everlasting salvation.It’s not in ourselves, or our good works. It’s in Christ (Acts 4:12). It’s when we allow Christ to reign as King and Lord in our lives, depending on Him by continuing to submit and look to Him in reverential fear as we desire to please Him. It’s when we allow the Spirit’s message to live and transform our mind by conforming to His sword, instead of the world (Eph. 6:17, Rom. 12:2). All of this is doing the Father’s will. Godhead is one in essence, nature and unity. Obedience to God is throwing ourselves on God’s mercy and grace. God gets all the glory. All glory for salvation goes to God.

Paul tells us how we are saved by grace and justified: Through/by faith. James tells us when we are saved by grace and justified by faith to be declared/made right in the sight of God: By having a faith that obeys/works the commandments/works that God has authorized.

These works/commandments to be saved by grace through faith were not of ourselves. But of God. Everything which God has revealed to us through His word to be saved is grace. It’s dripping with grace and love. The fact we have the Bible is grace.

God’s grace tells us that we can’t live in sin any longer (Rom. 6:1). It teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts, and teaches us to live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world (Titus 2:12).

This next part is from Randall Caselman “Mercy is Jesus seeing our sin condition. As He passed by, He saw a man blind from birth. Jesus saw a man in need: a man who could do nothing to help himself, a man whose condition was desperate, helpless, hopeless. Hundreds, perhaps thousands, of people had passed by this man without paying any attention to him. He had become a fixture on their way to Sabbath Worship. What we casually overlook, or deliberately ignore, Jesus sees! Jesus sees us blinded from the light, lost in sin. God looks at us, not as we are, but as we could be. Praise God for this! Amen? Grace is His offer of healing. Jesus commanded: "Go, wash. He went and came seeing!" There was nothing special about the clay with which Jesus anointed his eyes or the water in which he washed. The Pool of Siloam was simply the answer of a good conscience to do what Jesus asked for his healing, his salvation. It was his pool of Grace. This has an obvious spiritual application for us. "In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace" (Ephesians 1.7). "You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ" (Galatians 3.26-27).
Mercy and Grace flow from God, originate in Him, flow through Jesus to those who will believe and obey Him. “Grace and peace from Jesus Christ, who loves us, has freed us from our sins by his blood. He has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve His God and Father. To him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen” (Paraphrase of Revelation 1.4-6).”

I also want to point out that when we get saved, God gives us His Holy Spirit so that we are able to obey and become godly as He wants. I think a lot of people forget that. They try to obey God in their own power, fail and then get discouraged. So they start going around pushing a gospel that discourages obeying God, claiming that it is a work of the flesh - which is true - but not highlighting the fact that God gives us the Holy Spirit and that if we just submit to Him, He will take care of the growth into obedience and godliness so that it is not our work, but the Holy Spirit's alone.


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While Jesus is the author of eternal life to all who obey Him, this doesn't condition salvation upon obedience. Rather, it merely stipulates that obedience is characteristic of believers. And why wouldn't it be. Someone who has been born from above, had their heart circumcised, and become a partaker of the divine nature seems to be a great candidate for obedience.

When Paul contrasted works and grace he was referring specifically to the works of the law of Moses. Nothing else. Interpreting works to mean any self-effort by an act of our will is serious error and delusion. When we align our will with God's will and act accordingly, we are walking in the spirit and doing God's will.

For example, let's say I long to have something good and work to acquire it, but realize that in doing so my actions will hurt someone else unjustly. What is the godly thing to do? Satisfy my longing and unjustly hurt someone else, or deny, ie crucify, my longing for a good thing for the sake of another? Would you want somebody unjustly hurting you for the sake of their personal gain? If not, then don't do the same to them.

Treating others like we want to be treated, and conversely, not treating others like we don't want to be treated, is the standard for justice, ie righteousness. It is the ultimate justice and why Jesus said those who do this have fulfilled all of the law and the prophets.

These kinds of things require self-control and willful acts on our part, but they are the works of God because they are doing his word through the power of his spirit to conquer and rule sin.

Paul talks about the flesh and the Spirit.

We choose which one we allow to rule.
We follow one or the other.

The Spirit is obedient and righteous.
The flesh is selfish.

Rom 8:5-6
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Mat 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

The greatest battle is the battle against self or the flesh... when we die to self then the Spirit can work in us.

No glory to us. The power is from God, but God does not force us to do His will.

The victory is won by giving up and surrendering all to God.

I also want to point out that when we get saved, God gives us His Holy Spirit so that we are able to obey and become godly as He wants. I think a lot of people forget that. They try to obey God in their own power, fail and then get discouraged. So they start going around pushing a gospel that discourages obeying God, claiming that it is a work of the flesh - which is true - but not highlighting the fact that God gives us the Holy Spirit and that if we just submit to Him, He will take care of the growth into obedience and godliness so that it is not our work, but the Holy Spirit's alone.


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“who obey Him, this doesn't condition salvation upon obedience.”

“and to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;”
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭1:7-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

This quote is ascribed to C.S. Lewis “Without God’s grace, there would not be Jesus Christ. Without grace, there would be no resurrection. Without grace, there would not be a plan of salvation. All of these are the effects of God’s grace.”

I agree with Lewis. Let me take it more in depth and say what grace does.

Grace is getting what we need (heaven) instead of what we deserve (hell). Paul linked grace and obedience together (Titus 2:11–12)

God has given us a way to be saved, and tells us how. We did nothing to earn or deserve it. God provided us a way to be saved anyway. That’s grace.

Jesus is “the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him” (Hebrews 5:9). Obedience is lovingly submitted to God. It affirms our devotion to Him. It is humble, loving submission to God’s will. Living a Christian life affirms our love to Christ (John 14:15, 15:14). It affirms our devotion to Him. His love compels us (2 Cor. 5:14) to do so and God’s grace is the instructor (Titus 2:11-12).

God has a will for man to obey to be saved. As we do His will, it is obeying the work OF God. They are His works, which He gives to us to do. Those works are designed by HIM, NOT US. We are NOT saving ourselves by ourselves when we obey God’s divine authoritative commands.

Take away God’s grace, and have nothing but obedience. Will obedience alone save someone? No, because no one can obey perfectly. Take away obedience and have nothing but God’s grace. Will God’s grace alone save someone? No, because one must obey the gospel (2 Thess 1:8) and one must not live in sin to be saved (Rom. 6:1; Col. 3:5-7, etc etc). So, to be saved by grace you must obey (Heb. 5:9). God did His part by giving grace, and we must do our part to access by faith this His grace to be saved by grace (Rom. 5:2; Acts 2:38; Eph 2:8; Heb. 5:9).

Obedience to the faith isn’t saving ourselves. We don’t wash our sins away ourselves. Someone else did that for us out of love. That is purely by grace. Grace is a gift of love from God. It did not come from ourselves, but God. We didn’t take our sins away when we obeyed. It was someone else, and that is purely by grace.

When we sin, there is nothing we devise to reconcile ourselves back to God. There’s nothing we can devise of our own accord to fix that bridge.

There is nothing we can do that gets around what Jesus did. All of our obedience doesn’t circumvent the cross of Christ or the resurrection. Obeying is looking to HIM for salvation instead of looking to SELF. It’s continuing to look to HIM. It’s being submissive. Does it, in any way, take away from Jesus, when we obey…JESUS??

We did not invent the commands for how to be saved. We are just doing what we are told. Even when we do good works that is letting our light shine so that others sees Christ in us (Matt. 5:16). It’s letting the gospel light of Christ flow from our hearts and souls. Saving faith is the act of putting all of our trust in Christ alone for our everlasting salvation.It’s not in ourselves, or our good works. It’s in Christ (Acts 4:12). It’s when we allow Christ to reign as King and Lord in our lives, depending on Him by continuing to submit and look to Him in reverential fear as we desire to please Him. It’s when we allow the Spirit’s message to live and transform our mind by conforming to His sword, instead of the world (Eph. 6:17, Rom. 12:2). All of this is doing the Father’s will. Godhead is one in essence, nature and unity. Obedience to God is throwing ourselves on God’s mercy and grace. God gets all the glory. All glory for salvation goes to God.

Paul tells us how we are saved by grace and justified: Through/by faith. James tells us when we are saved by grace and justified by faith to be declared/made right in the sight of God: By having a faith that obeys/works the commandments/works that God has authorized.

These works/commandments to be saved by grace through faith were not of ourselves. But of God. Everything which God has revealed to us through His word to be saved is grace. It’s dripping with grace and love. The fact we have the Bible is grace.

God’s grace tells us that we can’t live in sin any longer (Rom. 6:1). It teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts, and teaches us to live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world (Titus 2:12).

This next part is from Randall Caselman “Mercy is Jesus seeing our sin condition. As He passed by, He saw a man blind from birth. Jesus saw a man in need: a man who could do nothing to help himself, a man whose condition was desperate, helpless, hopeless. Hundreds, perhaps thousands, of people had passed by this man without paying any attention to him. He had become a fixture on their way to Sabbath Worship. What we casually overlook, or deliberately ignore, Jesus sees! Jesus sees us blinded from the light, lost in sin. God looks at us, not as we are, but as we could be. Praise God for this! Amen? Grace is His offer of healing. Jesus commanded: "Go, wash. He went and came seeing!" There was nothing special about the clay with which Jesus anointed his eyes or the water in which he washed. The Pool of Siloam was simply the answer of a good conscience to do what Jesus asked for his healing, his salvation. It was his pool of Grace. This has an obvious spiritual application for us. "In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace" (Ephesians 1.7). "You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ" (Galatians 3.26-27).
Mercy and Grace flow from God, originate in Him, flow through Jesus to those who will believe and obey Him. “Grace and peace from Jesus Christ, who loves us, has freed us from our sins by his blood. He has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve His God and Father. To him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen” (Paraphrase of Revelation 1.4-6).”

Points out 2 things characteristic of those who will suffer vengeance:
...they know not God
...they disobey

Many people here on the site take simple statements of fact and make them conditional.

Right they don’t obey the gospel and they don’t know Jesus which the gospel reveals to the believer . They are destroyed because they don’t know God and don’t obey the gospel .

obedience does matter to salvation is the point. All Paul is tesching there is what Jesus taught in the gospel

“As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13:40-43‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“and to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;”
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭1:7-9‬ ‭

“For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭4:17-19‬ ‭KJV‬‬


seems pretty simple and consistent we can’t keep acting in sin doing evil or we’re going to be destroyed because of it we need to repent and follow the lords will but this is something Jesus and his apostles consistently taught . We all have the freedom to reject it also

I do t know why anyone would want to reject his words promising life and salvstion but some do

“He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:48-50‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Ultimately it’s just like Jesus and his apostles taught we need to change our thinking from “ I don’t really need to j ey Gods Will in the gospel I’m already saved regardless “ over to the things Jesus taught believers like “ unless I repent I’m going to surely perish “

or something like this concept

“And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: he is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock. But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:46-49‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We want our house to stand upon the rock when the storm comes not fall and be ruined because there’s no foundation

“Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2:19‬ ‭

Why ? Because

“But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: for there is no respect of persons with God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:5-11‬ ‭

As long as we think we don’t need to do anything he told us we need to do we’re not going to be able to do anything he told us we need to do gotta let what the gospel teaches change the thinking

“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

we fight against the things Jesus said so plainly and simply and search for an alternative but there isn’t one

Righteousness Of Christ ~ “The work of God is this: to believe in the One He has sent.” You were dead in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, in which you used to walk when you conformed to the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience. The Son gives life to whom He is pleased to give it. If Christ is in you, your spirit is alive because of righteousness. We put on the righteousness of Christ.

The original post you shared simply stated that those who receive vengeance don't know God and don't obey. This should surprise no one. Unsaved people don't know or obey God. What it doesn't say is that if someone decided to attempt to obey God then they would know God or be saved. This is what many infer, but it's not what the verse is teaching.
On the flip side, those who are saved are characterized by obedience and knowledge of God.
My point is, your original post is merely a statement of fact relaying what is true of those who receive vengeance. It does not say that obedience would produce salvation or knowing God. It's merely a description of what is true of someone under condemnation. It isn't showing a causal relationship.

“The original post you shared simply stated that those who receive vengeance don't know God and don't obey. “


it was a reply to this stated by you

“While Jesus is the author of eternal life to all who obey Him, this doesn't condition salvation upon obedience”

And so i quoted to you with what Paul said to the church about not obeying the gospel and the result of that

“and to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;”
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭1:7-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

but then I also quoted Jesus and other letters of Paul like this one that tell us that efience is absolutely a factor in tbe result whether eternal life or wrath for sin. I’ll

“But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: for there is no respect of persons with God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:5-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Obedience to the gospel is what faith is when it’s working and active and if we keep obeying unrighteousness and don’t repent and obey the lord ….what does it say will happen to us ? As opposed to if we repent and turn and o ey the lord doing good and not evil shat does it say we will receive ?

Faith isnt a substitute for hearing what God said , believing him and acting upon it . That’s what faith is when it’s complete hearing what God told you , believing it and then acting upon the belief he gave you with his word

like this

“And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand toward heaven, that there may be darkness over the land of Egypt, even darkness which may be felt.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭10:21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

God only spoke to Moses but nothing happens that he said until
Moses acts upon it then the effectual fulfillment and power happens


“And Moses stretched forth his hand toward heaven; and there was a thick darkness in all the land of Egypt three days: they saw not one another, neither rose any from his place for three days: but all the children of Israel had light in their dwellings.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭10:22-23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

moses was just a guy what caused the miraculous event was Gods word that instructed Moses and told him what would happen when he acted . That’s faith . Of Moses had said to God “ I don’t actually need to lift my hand towards the heavens lord I have faith “ the event God spoke wouldn’t have happened his words are always true . What he said included Moses action for it to happen

That’s how the gospel works when we come and begin listening to him we’re told what to do by God , then we’re told what he will do in response . If our attitude is “ I dont need to actually do anything Jesus said to do and I do t need to stop doing those things he said I need to stop doing or I’ll perish “ we’re not letting the seed into the soul so fruit can grow with perseverance

Our basic difference is that you believe obedience is necessary in order to be saved, whereas I believe obedience is the result of salvation. So you understand the initial verse you cited to be prescriptive for salvation. In other words, we hear the gospel, we obey...we are saved.
I, on the other hand, believe we hear the gospel, are saved, and then obey. So I read the same passage of scripture as descriptive. I don't see a causal relationship, but merely a statement of truth describing individuals, or in this case, a group of individuals.
I believe my understanding comports with scripture, while I believe your understanding has man as the one who is the ultimate determiner of his salvation. And I believe if this is the case, salvation is no longer of grace, but adds an individual's actions...works...to the grace of God.