Hermeneutics: Interpreting Scripture

The fine pearl market has always been something of trouble. It has been absolutely full of scam artists and partial truths even 2,000 years ago just like it still is today. You can pay outrageous sums of $$ for real pearls and still not buy what you think you are getting.

Oysters, which produce the pearls, are an unclean Animal....just like pigs or shrimp....which is why some Jews don't deal in pearls. (Others have no compunction about the unclean pearls)

Pearls don't last forever like gold or diamonds. When they lose their luster/shine they are worthless again. Which is kinda odd that Jesus used pearls as a type of the KOH but....

I think that it's more about the snake pit of the pearl market that Jesus is referencing here. And indeed....from the outside in Christianity seems but simply one of many religions....of which will cost you everything.

Which is why some people look at those who become Christians as nuts.

note the presence of the theme of salvation here

to be consistent you must accept both that He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked and that He hardens hearts and hides knowledge from people; that salvation is by mercy only, to whom He will show it, and that sovereign election exists, about which mankind is exceedingly vain to think to complain against Him.

none of which means He does not love all nor that humankind has no free agency.

in my opinion your theology in our conversation has been too narrow, not allowing for the mystery and primacy of His will. because i intentionally focused on what i perceived you were neglecting, you presumed me from the beginning to fit into the narrow box of the extreme opposite of your narrow box. that is not the case. harmonization of scripture, in my view, does not allow us to camp ourselves in either Pelagianism nor Augustianism, nor to completely deny either.

the western church has a long history of thinking it can explain the profound, and in doing so ignoring alternate halves of the Bible. we have something to learn from our sister the East, which accepts that mystery exists, and simply embraces it as what it is: profundity.

that is hermeneutic.
let scripture say what it says, and when you cannot fathom it, don't deny it: humble yourself. it speaks of things too wonderful for you, and you should have every expectation that it does so.
it is after all, the word of omniscient, infinite God, as much higher than us as the utmost heavens are higher than the bottom of the sea.

My goal in this thread is to discuss how we can answer Christ's prayer for spiritual unity among his followers that is found in John 17:20-23.
It seems to me that a lot of chat by Christians tends to ignore Jesus' concern, but for those who share it the question is how to achieve it, and the answer involves agreeing on one interpretation of Scripture.

Thus, I would like to begin by sharing a way of interpreting Scripture that is based on the instruction of Paul in 1THS 5:21 to “Test everything. Hold on to the good.” As I have been seeking ultimate truth and testing what I have learned, I have come to value two NT teachings as key points from which to triangulate or use to guide my interpretation of the Bible, especially problematic statements, but before I share them I would like to ask y'all to tell which two most guide your thinking and chatting.

This approach did not dawn on me until a few years ago, so perhaps I need to go first as an example. My two guiding Scriptures are these:

First: 1TM 2:3-4 - "God our savior wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth." This verse is in the same vein as RM 5:8, "God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." MT 5:44&48 teaches that God even loves His enemies, which would include Satan.

Second: 2THS 1:6a - "God is just." This is stated also in RM 9:14, "Is God unjust? Not at all!" and in DT 32:4b, "...all His ways are just."
Justness = righteousness, so many other verses are in this vein. Explanations of God’s Word should not impugn God’s justice for all.

I mine these truths from the Scriptural veins to employ as the starting point of my understanding. What about y'all?

A lofty goal. The agreement over Scripture is from other verses, correct?



To hold on to the good, it seems to me we should remember that God has created so in this time we have both light and dark, good and bad, belief and unbelief, truth and error, etc. Part of what guides my thinking is that we live in a creation with this reality, and we are going through an instructional phase created by God for His purposes.



Others seem to be fairly challenging you on whether or not your approach works well. As I read your above approach and what results from it, I repeatedly find myself asking whether you are misbalancing God's essence.

For instance, above you equate His Justness to His Righteousness. They are not the same thing but do work in perfect harmony in God. It's this perfect essence in perfectly unified attributes that we have difficulty understanding. Scripture does tell us He both loves and hates. Some explain away this hate replacing it with words like 'chooses" just as they explain His anger or hatred as anthropomorphism meant to help us understand. Others reason we can't have love if we don't also have hate - we need the dark to understand the light.

Years ago, I determined to come out of all the tradition I could shed and just let the Text say what it says, IOW let God say what He says. There was a teacher I read a few years ago who dealt with a Scriptural topic that is routinely argued about because, based upon other Scripture it can be viewed 2 ways. His resolution was that Scripture says both. That may not sound like great exegesis, but he was absolutely correct.

NKJ Isaiah 45:5-7 I am the LORD, and there is no other; There is no God besides Me. I will gird you, though you have not known Me, 6 That they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting That there is none besides Me. I am the LORD, and there is no other; 7 I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the LORD, do all these things.'

NKJ Isaiah 55:7-9 Let the wicked forsake his way, And the unrighteous man his thoughts; Let him return to the LORD, And He will have mercy on him; And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon. 8 "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," says the LORD. 9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts.

I agree with working to harmonize Scripture. I have done a lot of personal work in the Text harmonizing in word studies to try to understand a word God uses as He uses it rather than how Lexicons or others define it. So, one of my guides as I said earlier is to let God say what He says and work to understand what He means. One of the basic hermeneutics we all should know is the retention of context.

The other harmonization it seems is your first lofty goal based upon our KING'S lofty prayer. Maybe we should just relax a bit and read those 2 above quoted sections of Isaiah repeatedly until we realize we're unharmoniously fighting - which is not good debate - over things that are above our current abilities and that this lack of capacity will likely last until He returns.

FWIW, I'm seeing some fighters trying to take deep breaths and reign in the ad hominem and suggest to others that this would be better. We've all got internal issues, but a unified Body is His will and prayer. What and Who's more important?

I agree that "unharmoniously fighting" is wrong, but things that are "above our current abilities" may not be above our future abilities to understand if we persevere in LGW--at least I know that is true in my case/life.

Perseverance is good. As I essentially said elsewhere, aiming for perfection is also good. Deviation (a.k.a. sin) is bad.

Does our Text say He hates humanity or is that an application we're [wrongly] making?

I think that the only text saying God hates humanity is RM 9:13, which says God hated Esau, quoting MAL 1:3, referring to the wrath of God, which is just punishment of wickedness IMO of GW (MAL 1:4).

Thus, I think those who view God as hating the non-elect are sorely mistaken bordering on blasphemy of His all-loving HS.

A couple verses to consider:


A few more things to consider:

• The Hebrew mind from which all Scripture is based, including the NT that was being written at a time where the Greek mindset was being integrated into the Ekklesia, views things in a more concrete rather than an abstract way. IOW, this is not so much about the abstract thought, but the outward action that results. One of the ways this Hebrew verb can be translated is to be unwilling to put up with and can carry the action of opposing and separating.
• Even the Greek LXX can trend into disfavor and disregard.
• I have a few posters here on ignore. I don't hate them in the abstract sense, but I have hated them - refused to put up with them - when I hit the ignore button.
• If we want to harmonize, one of the things to consider putting into our tool bag is harmonization of the Hebrew and Greek cultures our Text was dealing with, especially Paul who was at the forefront of God's work. This is actually a part of a good hermeneutic. He was a Hebrew citizen of Rome trained in the thinking of both cultures. Much of his work is coming to be more and more understood as rhetoric to deal with this integration God had enacted.

A few more thoughts:

• I understand the basis of this thinking and from that basis I agree with you.
• If we go back to what you and I may consider as a Biblical doctrine of Election, then:
  • There is some truth to that statement that God can hate the non-elect. To clarify, if Believers are Elect and unbelievers are non-elect, and if those non-elect fit into Ps5:5 and 11:5, then God can indeed in the Hebrew sense hate them.
  • At the same time, His Word & Spirit are in the world loving them offering them repentance, redemption, salvation, righteousness, etc. (your focus on 1Tim2:4 which clearly says what He wills - BTW, I have something else to discuss re: this verse if you'd like).
  • At some point His outward loving efforts end for some and they remain in His hate but that doesn't change the fact that He is Love

This is why I said earlier that we need to have as another basis for our thinking and interpretation; that we exist in a creation with both light and dark and we need to think in terms of this reality. Not all things are as cut and dry and clearly categorized in the ways western minds have been cultured to think.

Good luck explaining to determinists that God hates in the Hebrew sense rather than in the sense of what the Bible clearly says in plain cut and dried language!

Re remaining in God's hate at some point: Yes, when hate is understood as wrath. which is understood as just consequence for putting God on "ignore".

Re more on 1TM 2:3-4: Shoot! (ilE)

At some point that's what hate, aka ignore, is for.



As you see and illustrate, there are several words that can be used to explain one another.



NKJ 1Tim2:3-4 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

• I've highlighted "and"
  • In Greek grammar one of the ways we can translate this, and in line with Hebrew parallelism, is with a word that equates the 2 clauses, such as 'namely' or 'even' or 'meaning'. So, the 2nd clause explains something about the parallel clause.
• I've highlighted "knowledge"
  • This word is a compound word, and the compounding is done to intensify the word in some way.
  • I and some others have concluded - I through the harmonization in word studies I mentioned earlier - that this word is best explained as something to the effect of "practical knowledge" - knowledge specifically meant to be put to use
• Summary:
  • God desires all men to be saved - meaning God desires all men to come to the practical/usable knowledge of Truth - i.e. having the knowledge to actually live as He wills and to use it to live accordingly.
• Some comparisons and thoughts:
  • NKJ Titus 2:11-14 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.
    • God's grace salvation:
      • appeared to all men
      • teaching us (salvation / practical knowledge of truth) to live godly lives (redeemed from lawlessness/sin, purified, zealous for good works)
  • NKJ 2 Peter 1:2-4 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
    • Same word 'practical knowledge' now clearly seen to be from God
    • Note godliness and partaking of the divine nature via this this practical knowledge from Him.
  • NKJ John 8:31-34 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, "If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 "And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." 33 They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can you say, 'You will be made free '?" 34 Jesus answered them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin.
    • Note this very well know and oft repeated verse 32 is in the context of being freed from sin 9this from learning/coming to know the truth which is the salvation God desires for all men.
  • We can of course also tie this to Jesus the Christ/KING telling us He is the Truth.

I can run this extensively. It began with an extensive and lengthy word study of "salvation" and all cognates. The above is quick and off the top of my head (as they say). I'm sure it could be detailed much better.

I agree with everything you said,

returning to the study of parables, would you like to present the next one or two?

i see that you "accept both" that God "takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked and that He hardens hearts" and thus you believe double-think is better than harmonizing.

You think we must "ask why God would harden an heart or hide knowledge from another", but you do not answer that question.

My answer is based on teachings of Paul (TOP) such as the following:

TOP #25: All have sinned by breaking moral law but may be justified by God’s grace through faith in Christ’s redemption or atonement. [RM 3:9-26] The most familiar part of this passage is v. 23-24, “All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

TOP #30: God demonstrates His love for sinners by means of Christ dying for the ungodly or atheists. [RM 5:6-11] This is called being “reconciled”.

TOP #32: God’s grace or salvation is provided to everyone who receives/accepts it. [RM 5:15-21] Paul does not explain how everyone may accept God’s gift.

Also 1TM 2:3-4, "God our Savior wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth." "All" would include whomever you think God hardens or hides the truth from.

And of course there is JN 3:16, "God so loved the world that He gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

I see two ways to harmonize Scriptures such as those I just cited with EX 10:1, "Then the Lord said to Moses, 'Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his officials so that I may perform these miraculous signs of mine among them... that you may know that I am the Lord.'"

1. God's hardening does not abrogate MFW in a way that prevents anyone from being saved, but rather by this means God tweaks the river of history so that it flows in accordance with His POS, causing someone to be stubborn/obstinate without condemning them to hell for that reason.

2. OT writers did not distinguish between God's intentional and permissive wills, so that IS 6:10 says, "Make the heart of this people calloused... otherwise they might... understand with their hearts and turn [repent] and be healed." Whereas when Jesus cites this passage in MT 13:15 he changes the wording to "For this people's heart has become calloused... otherwise they might... understand with their hearts and turn and I would heal them."

I accept this harmonization. And you?

The first statement in v.44 is a simile comparing the KOH to a treasure hidden in a field. When a man discovered it, he sold everything he had and bought the field.

The second statement in v.45-46 is another simile comparing the KOH to a valuable pearl. A merchant sold everything he owned to buy it.

the treasure in the field and the choice pearl cannot possibly be salvation:
salvation cannot be bought or sold. such thinking is evil.

the man in the parables cannot represent us, the church. we do not purchase or secure salvation, or equivalently, Christ, neither His Kingdom.

it is Christ Who purchases us, having given all He had for us, even His life.

"Doctrine" means teaching. Doctrine of any subject means "what GW teaches about _________", in this case parables. Thus, I am leading us in a study of the parables of Jesus, and we are about half way through presenting all of them. Would you like to present the next one?

I think it is the Parable of the Lost Sheep in MT 18:10-14. Then there will be the Parable of the Unmerciful Servant in MT 18:23-35.

You asked, "What does this passage teach us about the doctrine of parables?" This passage you identified as "The Parable of the Tenants (MT 21:33-46)".

So. you were asking, "What does the Parable of the Tenants (MT 21:33-46) teach us about the doctrine of parables?" That is not the same question as "What does the Parable of the Tenants (MT 21:33-46) teach us?" The question you asked makes no sense. You have invented a class of doctrine called the doctrine of parables.

What do you think the Word of God teaches about parables?"

thus you believe double-think is better than harmonizing.

You think we must "ask why God would harden an heart or hide knowledge from another", but you do not answer that question.

EX 10:1, "Then the Lord said to Moses, 'Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his officials so that I may perform these miraculous signs of mine among them... that you may know that I am the Lord.'"

Matthew 13:44