Why do some people believe and some do not?

I'm looking at wording which is where we began. The fact is that the wording of Scripture shows God reveals Himself in different ways and men know Him to the extent He reveals Himself to them As I've made clear with His words, that's what He says.

So now you'd like to branch out and discuss what you see conceptually in J14:23. Do you see this tabernacling as ultimately experiential for the believer? Same concept as Rom1. Different content and means re: God and His interaction with His creation now revealing Himself to believing men so they can know Him - what adjective did you apply? - intimately?

I can see him in your words.

This is interesting. FWIW, the more I've learned I reached a point where it's made me just go back to the Foundation as being most important. Maybe it's all the debate and argument and even hostility within the Household coupled with the mess of the world outside it. At a point it just seemed the only thing that's truly important is that I know and believe and thus am submitted to who Jesus is and who our Father is. I don't think I'm alone in this sentiment:

The soul is part of the body and is actually the seat of the sin nature. All sin originates in the longings of the body, including the soul/mind

That which defiles a person comes out of the heart/soul, not physical flesh

Natural men are soulish


Which is why the word separates between soul and spirit

"But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned"

This is no by any means a stand alone verse or a summation, read the entire letter and understand the audience to whom the letter was written.

[Luk 11:52 KJV]
Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.

[Mat 15:14 KJV]
Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

Yes, some actual context normally helps.

Here you go genius....
Now that you know the truth, are you going to hide it like the guy that hid the talent?

Now we have received G2983 , not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

Outline of Biblical Usage

1. to take
   1. to take with the hand, lay hold of, any person or thing in order to use it
      1. to take up a thing to be carried
      2. to take upon one's self

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[2Ki 6:5 KJV]
But as one was felling a beam, the axe head fell into the water: and he cried, and said, Alas, master! for it was borrowed.

[2Ki 6:6 KJV]
And the man of God said, Where fell it? And he shewed him the place. And he cut down a stick, and cast [it] in thither; and the iron did swim.

[2Ki 6:7 KJV]
Therefore said he (the Man of God aka the God-Man), Take [it] up to thee. And he put out his hand, and took it.

Appreciate the reply.
This is the point I am making. All revelation isn't intimate and personal.

From nature we learn that God allows the sun to shine on all people. He gives rain that all may eat. In this way, He is loving towards all mankind. And whether an individual recognizes this or not, they experience, on a certain level of the love of God. But this is vastly different than God coming to an individual, transforming their heart, and dwelling in them.

Both are experiential. Only one is intimate.

Suppose I lived in the west during a time when America was just being settled. And imagine that women were in short supply so I send back east for a bride. And suppose I write her a letter telling her about myself, and she reciprocates. In her letter, she says she is an excellent cook, keeps a very clean home, and loves nature. I now know 3 things about her because I have read them.
Soon the day comes when she arrives. We go to the church, get married, and go to my homestead. I awake the next morning to a cornucopia of delightful aromas. I go into the kitchen and she has cooked a delicious meal of eggs, and bacon, and biscuits, and coffee. She had written that she was a good cook, but now I know because I've experienced eating her cooking.
Grabbing a few biscuits and giving her a passionate kiss, I head out to the back 40 to plow. After a long day of work I return home to find the house pristine. The floors are swept and mopped, the furniture is polished, the bed clothes cleaned and the bed neatly made up. She had written that she kept a clean home, but now I have experienced it for myself.
After another amazing meal, we take a walk in the cool of the evening. She breathes deeply of the fresh air and comments on the beauty of the sunset and the landscape. She had written that she enjoyed nature, but now I experienced her enjoying nature.

This story highlights the difference between knowing something is true because it is written, and knowing something is true because you have experienced it for yourself. Many people believe things about God because He has declared them to be so. Some know because what is declared has been their experience of Him. And this is the substance of eternal life...John 17:3. This is what it means that God and Christ have pitched their tent with an individual...John 14:23. And this is the intimacy I was referring to.

Hey @Cameron143 @Rufus @brightfame52 @Melach @ParticularWife

Why the radio silence? Afraid that Toto might pull back the curtain?

I've fully understood your point from the start, and I think I've made clear how I've understood it.

As Paul essentially says, all men know God, but some see no value in having Him in practical knowledge.

As John says, eternal life is to know God and Jesus Christ whom He sent.

If it wasn't for revelation - His revealing Himself - no man would know Him at all.

Firstly, and I'm just speaking about myself without any outwardly pointed innuendo, it's important to me to stay tight to the Text, which essentially says God has revealed Himself to every man and that all men know Him to a point that He says no man has a legitimate excuse for rejecting Him. Secondly, this adds to my ever-increasing respect and admiration for Him as I learn more about His absolute righteousness and justice - or fairness - not to mention His absolute love expressed in these other perfect characteristics and actions of His.

Part of the reality of Him is seen in verses like this. It's simply a shame that men choose darkness when they know God:


I haven't read your entire post. I'm simply trying to wrap up where we started. If you'd like to discuss some other point you've made, let me know.

Thanks.

Thanks for the discussion.

The larger context being the multitude of verses concerning the natural man
which regularly get ignored, twisted, and/or denied by the free will crowd.

They ascribe to the natural man what only the spiritual man is capable of.

I am giving God ALL the credit for saving me.

And I am more and more uncomfortable with those that refuse to do so.

From giving His Son to pay my sin debt,
to giving me the Faith to believe,
to "quickening" me upon hearing the Gospel,
to disciplining me like a Father would when I grieve Him.

I fully understand the objections the free willers have about God CHOOSING to save some and not others.
And certainly on a human intellectual level that is disturbing.
But then I find myself questioning the motives of the Creator of ALL people and things. Trying to understand all that encompasses Him with a 3 pound human brain, and ultimately making myself out to be God, thinking "if I were God this is what seems fair to me, so therefore that's the way it is."

Few things scare me more than that mentality.

One verse. ONE.
Taken out of context. And then FAILING to undertake simple word study.
And then you foolishly TWIST and DENY the intended meaning and then synthesize an entire bogus doctrine from it to suit your own proclivities and agenda.
This is the Calvinite way.

Add one more verse and a word study and POOF there goes another Calvinite false doctrine down the drain.
Jesus did the similarly with the clueless pharisees.

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These people did not TAKE THE GIFT THAT WAS OFFERED. By an act of their own volition, their desire, their will. Simple as that.

1Co 2:14
But the natural man receiveth G1209 not G3756 the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The KJV translates Strong's G1209 in the following manner: receive (52x), take (4x), accept (2x), take up (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. to take with the hand
   1. to take hold of, take up

********************************************************************************************

Whereas these people DID TAKE THE GIFT THAT WAS OFFERED. By an act of their own volition, their desire, their will.

1Co 2:12
Now we have received, G2983 , not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.


The KJV translates Strong's G2983 in the following manner: receive (133x), take (106x), have (3x), caught (3x), not translated (1x), miscellaneous (17x).

Outline of Biblical Usage

1. to take
   1. to take with the hand, lay hold of, any person or thing in order to use it
      1. to take up a thing to be carried
      2. to take upon one's self

==================================================================================

Beware the leaven of the Calvinites!

Nobody (any actual believer) ever said anything contrary to that and nobody believes anything contrary to that either.

How in the world does somebody gift themselves with eternal life whereby they can take the credit?
The credit goes to the Gift Giver Who paid the price. And who EVER took credit for taking a gift that they know that they did not deserve?

This business about choosers "taking credit" and that choosing is a "work" is all just a Calvinite straw man false docrine hoax.

I am giving God 100% of the credit for showing me that without Him I am eternally lost with the ability to believe in Him so I was able to choose His gift.

That ends that proof text, cherry picked verse used incorrectly.
Amen!

Yep sure did, according to Gods perfect plan.

So God never harden Pharaohs heart? God had nothing at all to do with His perfect plan right? Man your thirst to prove Gods weakness is a obsession and a sickness, honestly a character flaw. You just can't stop lifting up man and lowering God in arrogance with your nose in the air. A real sickness.