Hermeneutics: Interpreting Scripture

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GWH

Groovy
Oct 19, 2024
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#81
Yes, we must assume/believe that as Earthlings speaking English the translations and Earth sciences are sufficiently accurate for them to serve God's desire for everyone to learn the truth.
(Not sure what just happened with this posting twice, but perhaps it is sufficiently clear :)
 

GWH

Groovy
Oct 19, 2024
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#82
Postscript Regarding Prescript

In the quest for greater Christian unity I requested that we identify the Scripture from which our interpretations of GW spring, which prompted me to clarify my own Top Ten in the following logical order.

1. Formerly/at first I was without hope of salvation from meaninglessness and death. (EPH 3:12b)

2. So I sought salvation and found God. (MT 7:7, HB 11:6b)

3. The loving God who wants all souls to learn the truth about how to be saved. (1TM 2:3-4, JN 3:16)

4. Which is to believe that Jesus is Christ, whose death atoned for humanity’s sins. (1TM 2:5-6)

5. As taught in all inspired Scripture interpreted in light of this Gospel of salvation. (2TM 3:15)

6. Such interpretation of GW also teaches how to be godly after being saved. (2TM 3:16-17)

7. Which doctrine Jesus summarized as loving God, oneself and everyone else. (MT 22:37-40)

8. And which moral maturity Paul termed as the fruit of the Holy Spirit. (GL 5:13-23)

9. That requires persevering in saving faith and learning God’s Word. (MT 4:4, 10:22)

10. So that we will grant the prayer of Jesus for us to be one in our witness. (JN 17:20-23)

What are YOUR Top 10 Scripture passages?
Clarifying my own Top Ten Scriptures was rather fun and edifying, so again I invite you to share yours as we wind down this topic of seeking agreement on the key/kerygmatic doctrines--which quest will continue on the Kerygma thread.
 

GWH

Groovy
Oct 19, 2024
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#83
I think the following song lyrics are a fitting way to end this quest for answering Jesus' prayer for oneness in John 17:20-23.

We are one in the Spirit, we are one in the Lord
We are one in the Spirit, we are one in the Lord
And we pray that all unity may one day be restored
And they'll know we are Christians by our love.

All praise to the Father from whom all things come
And all praise to Christ Jesus His only Son
And all praise to the Spirit who makes us one
And they'll know we are Christians by our love (JN 13:35).
 

GWH

Groovy
Oct 19, 2024
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#84
I have been participating on CC for about a month now and have three frustrations. First, the challenge of communicating clearly and completely but concisely. Second, attempting to win arguments rather than learn truth. Third, the need for but lack of essential or sufficient agreement on GRFS. Fourth, your turn/frustrations?
 

Eli1

Well-known member
Apr 5, 2022
5,208
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#85
I have been participating on CC for about a month now and have three frustrations. First, the challenge of communicating clearly and completely but concisely. Second, attempting to win arguments rather than learn truth. Third, the need for but lack of essential or sufficient agreement on GRFS. Fourth, your turn/frustrations?
I'm good.
 

GWH

Groovy
Oct 19, 2024
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#87
A Biblical and Logical Hermeneutic

My hermeneutic or parameters for interpreting the Bible begins with the instruction of Paul (1THS 5:21) to “Test everything. Hold on to the good”, which I call "truthseeking". A truthseeker wants to know the truth, and is guided by the question: What is most true or closest to the truth? The basis for discerning truth is subjective logic that is made as objective as possible by learning from other truthseekers, preferably via dialogue when possible, such as on CC.

As a result of seeking ultimate truth, I have come to value two NT teachings as key points from which to triangulate or use to guide my interpretation of the Bible, especially problematic statements:

First, God loves and wants to save everyone (1TM 2:3-4); Christ died to show God’s love and the possible salvation of all (RM 5:6-8) including His enemies (ungodly, atheist, anti-Christ).

Second, God is just (2THS 1:6a, cf. RM 3:25-26 & 9:14, DT 32:4, PS 36:6, LK 11:42, RV 15:3). Explanations of God’s Word should not impugn God’s justice and love for all people (JL 2:13, JN 3:16). I find this hermeneutic affirmed in the OT (PS 145:17): “The Lord is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works.” Triangulate from God’s love & justness.

This principle leads me to conclude that even the wrath of God is an expression of His love and justice. The writer of Hebrews (12:4-11) indicates that divine wrath is intended as discipline or for the purpose of teaching people to repent of their hatefulness and faithlessness (PR 3:12, IS 33:14-15 RV 3:19). If a righteous explanation cannot be found for a passage of Scripture purporting to describe God’s will, then it should be considered as historical or descriptive of what people perceived rather than as pedagogical or prescriptive of God’s nature. Unrighteous rage should not be attributed to God; that would be blasphemous!

The justice of God is a source of comfort and joy to those who have decided to accept His loving Lordship, but it is experienced as judgment or wrath by those who rebel against Him (IS 13:13, RM 1:18, RV 19:11). The fire that warms (purifies) also burns (punishes). Stating God’s requirement for salvation negatively: a person would do well (be wise) not to reject Him in order not to experience the miserable but just consequence (JN 3:17-18). Just consequences teach good behavior.
 

GWH

Groovy
Oct 19, 2024
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#90

GWH

Groovy
Oct 19, 2024
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#92
thanks it is well with my Soul too, thanks to God not me or anyone else
Yes,

"Give thanks to the Lord, for he is good;
his love endures forever...

Some wandered in desert wastelands...
They were hungry and thirsty, and their lives ebbed away,
Then they cried out to the Lord in their trouble,
And he delivered them from their distress,
For he satisfies the thirsty and fills the hungry with good things.

Some sat in darkness and the deepest gloom,
Prisoners suffering in iron chains, for they had rebelled against the words of God,
Then they cried to the Lord in their trouble,
and he saved them from their distress.

Some became fools through their rebellious ways,
And suffered affliction because of their iniquities,
Then they cried to the Lord in their trouble...
And he rescued them from the grave.

Others went out to the sea in ships...
They saw the works of the Lord,
For he spoke and stirred up a tempest...
Then they cried out to the Lord in their trouble,
And he stilled the storm to a whisper.

Whoever is wise, let him heed these things,
And consider the great love of the Lord."

(Psalm 107, excerpts)
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
3,512
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#93
My goal in this thread is to discuss how we can answer Christ's prayer for spiritual unity among his followers that is found in John 17:20-23.
It seems to me that a lot of chat by Christians tends to ignore Jesus' concern, but for those who share it the question is how to achieve it, and the answer involves agreeing on one interpretation of Scripture.

Thus, I would like to begin by sharing a way of interpreting Scripture that is based on the instruction of Paul in 1THS 5:21 to “Test everything. Hold on to the good.” As I have been seeking ultimate truth and testing what I have learned, I have come to value two NT teachings as key points from which to triangulate or use to guide my interpretation of the Bible, especially problematic statements, but before I share them I would like to ask y'all to tell which two most guide your thinking and chatting.

Thanks and love in Christ (LIC)
Trying to find agreement on one interpretation is the absolutely wrong way to go to produce the unity Christ spoke about.

1 Timothy 1:5-7
King James Version (KJV)Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned: from which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling; desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.


Romans 8:29
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
 
Oct 19, 2024
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#94
Trying to find agreement on one interpretation is the absolutely wrong way to go to produce the unity Christ spoke about.

1 Timothy 1:5-7
King James Version (KJV)Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned: from which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling; desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.


Romans 8:29
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
"Trying to find agreement on one interpretation" is wrong regarding what I meant when I spoke about Scripture.
Sorry. I should have specified "Scripture regarding GRFS" or the Christian creed/kerygma--elaborating on ACTS 16:31.
(My bad :^)
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
3,512
469
83
#95
A Biblical and Logical Hermeneutic

My hermeneutic or parameters for interpreting the Bible begins with the instruction of Paul (1THS 5:21) to “Test everything. Hold on to the good”, which I call "truthseeking". A truthseeker wants to know the truth, and is guided by the question: What is most true or closest to the truth? The basis for discerning truth is subjective logic that is made as objective as possible by learning from other truthseekers, preferably via dialogue when possible, such as on CC.

As a result of seeking ultimate truth, I have come to value two NT teachings as key points from which to triangulate or use to guide my interpretation of the Bible, especially problematic statements:

First, God loves and wants to save everyone (1TM 2:3-4); Christ died to show God’s love and the possible salvation of all (RM 5:6-8) including His enemies (ungodly, atheist, anti-Christ).

Second, God is just (2THS 1:6a, cf. RM 3:25-26 & 9:14, DT 32:4, PS 36:6, LK 11:42, RV 15:3). Explanations of God’s Word should not impugn God’s justice and love for all people (JL 2:13, JN 3:16). I find this hermeneutic affirmed in the OT (PS 145:17): “The Lord is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works.” Triangulate from God’s love & justness.

This principle leads me to conclude that even the wrath of God is an expression of His love and justice. The writer of Hebrews (12:4-11) indicates that divine wrath is intended as discipline or for the purpose of teaching people to repent of their hatefulness and faithlessness (PR 3:12, IS 33:14-15 RV 3:19). If a righteous explanation cannot be found for a passage of Scripture purporting to describe God’s will, then it should be considered as historical or descriptive of what people perceived rather than as pedagogical or prescriptive of God’s nature. Unrighteous rage should not be attributed to God; that would be blasphemous!

The justice of God is a source of comfort and joy to those who have decided to accept His loving Lordship, but it is experienced as judgment or wrath by those who rebel against Him (IS 13:13, RM 1:18, RV 19:11). The fire that warms (purifies) also burns (punishes). Stating God’s requirement for salvation negatively: a person would do well (be wise) not to reject Him in order not to experience the miserable but just consequence (JN 3:17-18). Just consequences teach good behavior.
Agree, but technically you cannot triangulate from only two points. :)
 
Feb 22, 2021
3,253
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Midwest
#96
GWH = "Just consequences teach good behaviour"?

Disagree = "What Saith The Scripture?":

"For The Grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,​
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live
soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world" (Titus 2:11-12 AV)​
Amen.
 
Oct 19, 2024
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#97
Agree, but technically you cannot triangulate from only two points. :)
What Is Triangulation? Triangulation is a method for calculating a position that relies on a known distance between two measuring apparatuses and the measured angles from those two points to an object. This works using the angle-side-angle triangle congruency theorem to the find the location of an object.

(Glad we agree :^)
 
Oct 19, 2024
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#98
GWH = "Just consequences teach good behaviour"?

Disagree = "What Saith The Scripture?":

"For The Grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,​
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live
soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world" (Titus 2:11-12 AV)​
Amen.
Not sure what you want me to change:

Just consequences teach bad behavior
Unjust consequences teach good behavior
It is impossible to teach behavior, with or without consequences
The grace of God has nothing to do with justice or hell
Since there is no hell, there is no just consequence for lust
We are not rats in a maze

Please explain!
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
3,512
469
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#99
What Is Triangulation? Triangulation is a method for calculating a position that relies on a known distance between two measuring apparatuses and the measured angles from those two points to an object. This works using the angle-side-angle triangle congruency theorem to the find the location of an object.

(Glad we agree :^)
I also agree with your explanation of triangulation. However, I don't understand how triangulating myself to God's love and God's justice allow me to know if I am at the correct point on the kerygma spectrum. By triangulating myself with two points a known distance apart I can ascertain my exact position relative to those two points, but I cannot determine whether I am in the right position relative to those two points, so as to be settled on the perfect interpretation of the kerygma. Rather than triangulation, the image you are looking for may be alignment. Maybe if my position on the kerygma aligns with both God's revelation concerning His universal love and His revelation of His justice, I am likely on the right track.
 
Oct 19, 2024
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I also agree with your explanation of triangulation. However, I don't understand how triangulating myself to God's love and God's justice allow me to know if I am at the correct point on the kerygma spectrum. By triangulating myself with two points a known distance apart I can ascertain my exact position relative to those two points, but I cannot determine whether I am in the right position relative to those two points, so as to be settled on the perfect interpretation of the kerygma. Rather than triangulation, the image you are looking for may be alignment. Maybe if my position on the kerygma aligns with both God's revelation concerning His universal love and His revelation of His justice, I am likely on the right track.
I use triangulation metaphorically for aiming from God's love for everyone (1TM 2:3-4) including His enemies (MT 5:44&48) and from God's righteousness or justness (2THS 1:6a) to interpret problematic Scriptures such as JSH 6-11 where God is said to have ordered Joshua to kill everyone including babies in many Canaanite towns.

On another thread I demonstrated this method thusly:

GN 6:17 says God will cause a flood, which He does every day somewhere in the world as part of the earthly experience that He intends to teach humans their need of His salvation (HB 12:7-11), and everyone who seeks Him will be saved (MT 7:7). The next worldwide destruction will involve fire rather than water (2PT 3:6-7).

GN 19:24-25 says God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah by what seems like a volcanic eruption, which occurs every day...

JSH 6:21 is the beginning of the Israelites' campaign of genocide against the Canaanites (that ended in JSH 11:23) which Christians in the light of NT teaching must repudiate. However, I see two ways of harmonizing this passage with NT morality:

First, the astute reader will have noticed that the Gibeonites were spared because they agreed to be the Israelites, so perhaps the others would have been spared if they also had surrendered and converted from their paganism.

The second way is not preferred, but it is possible to view the adult Canaanite pagans as worthy of destruction, unless they fled the country, and to view killing their children as better than letting them starve to death since there was no adoption option.

1SM 15:3 says the Lord commanded killing all of the Amalekites as punishment for them attacking the Israelites (cf. DT 13:12-15). Again paganism is viewed as a capital crime punishable by death including the children, which reflects the morals of that time and place rather than of Christ.