Understanding God’s election

Well I am glad that we share some common belief it’s a blessing . I think it makes sense according to scripture but also other people have read scripture and came to other conclusions .

I think when a group of people come together pouring over scripture for the right intent and purpose some truth I’ll come forward and in the end often each side had some points that were valid and ultimately the reconciliation of those ideas presented in scripture is actually possible and already there if we find it and see it with an open mind and heart after a prayer or three

That's the crux of the matter: what is true of fallen man? How one answers this question will determine what is necessary to save him.

None of what you promote in this soteriology is scriptural it is Reformed.

That is right God only makes is effective for some in your soteriology.

In Romans 7 Paul expresses that his will is not free until rescued from the law of sin and death. Using Abraham as an example for all is erroneous because after Abe everyone who wanted to be counted with him was to be circumcised regardless of their beliefs. So yes, he believed first but that is not the case for eight day old babies which is the rest of the world now and certainly Israel or the Hebrews back then. So I am not ignoring what you said, I just don't think it applicable since it is the natural man is who is under review, the UNCIRCUMCISED person, and being contrasted with the person who who has been circumcised, and I do not ascribe to the former what only the latter can CHOOSE to do. Which is what many here do... and then call being enabled being forced, if they can even so much as acknowledge the fact that Scripture does in fact teach that God enables people.


John 8:36 plus Romans 8:2 If the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. For in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set you free from the law of sin and death.

Well, I find it incongruous that you claim to love Paul while ignoring his teaching, at least in this regard, apparently because of the reasons I cited: 1. ignoring Paul's teaching that faith is a non-meritorious acceptance of Christ's work. 2. ignoring and disputing Paul's teaching that A&E and Abraham are examples of sin and faith, respectively. 3. ignoring Paul's teaching that Abraham was saved by faith first and THEN God deemed him to be righteous or spiritually circumcised, 4. ignoring Paul's teaching that the proto-gospel message was NOT foolishness to Abrahan, which is why he chose to believe it, 5. ignoring Paul's teaching that God loves and wants to save all people, which means that He gives every sinner volition, thereby enabling him to seek salvation--or not, 6. ignoring the obvious fact that by denying the last teaching you implicitly blaspheme God, ascribing to Him hatred of humanity, or at least most of it, depending on how many you think He elects.

Believe and THEN be saved. Simple as that.

Well, I find it incongruous that you claim to love Paul while ignoring his teaching, at least in this regard, apparently because of the reasons I cited: 1. ignoring Paul's teaching that faith is a non-meritorious acceptance of Christ's work. 2. ignoring and disputing Paul's teaching that A&E and Abraham are examples of sin and faith, respectively. 3. ignoring Paul's teaching that Abraham was saved by faith first and THEN God deemed him to be righteous or spiritually circumcised, 4. ignoring Paul's teaching that the proto-gospel message was NOT foolishness to Abrahan, which is why he chose to believe it, 5. ignoring Paul's teaching that God loves and wants to save all people, which means that He gives every sinner volition, thereby enabling him to seek salvation--or not, 6. ignoring the obvious fact that by denying the last teaching you implicitly blaspheme God, ascribing to Him hatred of humanity, or at least most of it, depending on how many you think He elects.

Where did Paul teach that A &E are examples of faith?

If you are incarcerated in a Calvinite dungeon in an 8 X 8 cell, all you can really do is run around in circles.

Which is exactly what they are doing on this thread. Obvious to anybody.

Ephesians 2:4-7 ~ Because of His great love for us, God, Who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved! And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages He might display the surpassing riches of His grace, demonstrated by His kindness to us in Christ Jesus.

Yeah...but God didn't LITERALLY make anyone alive. That's just merely a euphemism. Spiritual resurrection teaching,
to the detractors of the Doctrines of Grace, is just in scripture to give us all warm 'n' fuzzy feelings.

So true... reminds me of people who have been given a script and come knocking at the door.

Oh and another thing:
There were TONS of unsaved Israelites.
And you thought God is saving them against their own will did you?

And there were also TONS of saved Israelites as well.

What pray tell was the cause of this DIVISION?

It is very peculiar that heart circumcision garners so much hatred.

I am grateful that God circumcised my heart.


Luke 4:18-19 The Spirit of the Lord is on Me, because He has anointed Me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent Me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to release the oppressed, 19to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.

Yes, this is the heart of the natural man, no doubt about it. I can be pretty stubborn too (still) but once my heart
was changed and after God had revealed Himself to me in a number of ways over quite a few years my resistance
was worn down to nothing, hallelujah! So many complain about God forcing people when what Scripture actually
says is that we are enabled. And to tell you the truth as I have already said, if in truth God did force me I praise
Him for loving me so much He overrode the natural man's hostility in me so I could love Him. Tho as I have
also already said, I do not believe I was forced, and I think it mostly a deliberate misrepresentation for
people to present being enabled as being coerced against one's will, kidnapped as one despicably said.

You forgot about only for some!

AMEN to that! I will always be eternally grateful for God's work in my life.

Yes it is a blessing.

This non-effective or insufficient Gospel is very troubling movement within the "church" and it seems to be spreading, I am hard pressed to see any reconciliation with this dogma when one studies the words and actions of Christ Jesus.

Agree, the right intent and purpose is essential and God would not teach that about Himself so there is something very wrong here.