Understanding God’s election

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nothing created of itself is good.

One more time

Eph 2: 8
8 For by grace you have been saved

Prety self explanitory. I have been saved solely by the grace of God

through faith,

But God will not force it on me. It is recieved through faith.


and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Again, prety self explanatory. The grace that saved me through me trusting him, is not of myself. and is not of works..

So why do you keep insisting that me recieving his grace gift negates grace? It is how we recieve grace.

the only other option is to reject it.

How do you reject grace?

1. Trying to work for it (not of works)
2. Outright rejection of it completely (Love your sin)
3. Denying you even need it (like the jews who denied Christ who came to save them)
and I am sure I can come up0 with other ways.

Well now you do.

When a person believes God only loves those He specifically chose and gave only those people the ability to "believe" is there really any common ground to build upon?
To me that is a different religion, not Christianity.

now I do what? no one is biting that bait

It was a joke. And it's a valid question. If everyone's sins are paid for, why would anyone be under condemnation?

Christ died for all sinners, but his blood is not imputed to their account until they believe the gospel.

The idea that flesh, ie physical substance, is evil is a gnostic idea.

The only physical substance Paul was concerned about was the fallen human body.




At least In that area, the gnostics had more sense than you do.
For they knew it was true about the flesh!

The flesh depravity was not some gnostic idea the gnostics invented..
They simply recognized the reality and went about attempting to define it their own way.

Paul copped a good number of Stoic terms and concepts, and turned them around to show the Stoics-thinking Romans,
that what they had tried to perfect by sheer willpower to force it into action, was now fulfilled by grace in Christ!

To the Romans he addressed?
It was a brilliant move on Paul's part!

In time, eternity shines through.

You're reasoning and snarky comment fall flat. You insist that verse means flesh is bad, but don't have the sense to realize the same meaning applies to what Jesus said about himself not being good, ie, Jesus is evil. Address that, O thou snarky one.

You're reasoning and snarky comment fall flat. You insist that verse means flesh is bad, but don't have the sense to realize the same meaning applies to what Jesus said about himself not being good, ie, Jesus is evil. Address that, O thou snarky one.

You're reasoning and snarky comment fall flat. You insist that verse means flesh is bad, but don't have the sense to realize the same meaning applies to what Jesus said about himself not being good, ie, Jesus is evil. Address that, O thou snarky one.

The word flesh means different things depending on the context, I would think. Sometimes it means that actual body and other times it means that part of humans that has the propensity to sin and be enslaved by sin.

And mind you no one is born a sinner or born a slave to sin.
Or do you ascribe to the Augustinian notion of original sin?

The word flesh means different things depending on the context, I would think. Sometimes it means that actual body and other times it means that part of humans that has the propensity to sin and be enslaved by sin.

And mind you no one is born a sinner or born a slave to sin.
Or do you ascribe to the Augustinian notion of original sin?

I did not say the flesh is evil.
When outside of God's restraining grace, the flesh is totally sinful.
Jesus died for sin.
He did not die for evil.

The way we can see that the flesh is sinful, is to first have our eyes opened to see the Righteousness of God.
That takes the Holy Spirit.

In the meantime?
Enjoy your 'good' flesh.

What does it mean when you say the flesh is totally sinful? Please be explicit. Does it ooze with the devil's DNA? Is sin a substance that gets stored in fat cells?

It was a joke. And it's a valid question. If everyone's sins are paid for, why would anyone be under condemnation?

It's as valid as a 3 dollar bill to anyone who actually is acquainted with scripture. The Bible never states everyone's sins are paid for. I am sure you could not possibly think John was a universalist, so what he states as quoted below does not agree with limited atonement but he is not saying everyone will be saved either so look elsewhere.

My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. I John 2:1-2

The offer of salvation is to all; all will accept it.

Or...because he was a Jew and writing to a Jewish audience who believed that salvation was primarily just for Jews, he was explaining that salvation was available to the whole world, and not simply Jews.