Convince me there is non-alcoholic wine in the Bible/communion

To understand if wine in the Bible was alcoholic, it helps to know the original terms. In Hebrew and Greek, the words used for wine usually mean fermented (alcoholic) grape juice. But "new wine" in Hebrew can mean fresh, non-alcoholic grape juice that hasn’t yet fermented.

at Pentecost we have the suspicion that the apostles were drunk on 'new wine' - - so clearly the term does refer to a drink which has alcoholic content.

How does grape juice take way the heart?

Whoredom and wine and new wine take away the heart. Hosea 4:11

Romans 14:14
I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

Romans 14:15
But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.

Give freedom one to another, trusting God

Romans 14:4
Who art thou that judgest another man’s servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

Whether alcohol in it or not, to me matters not any longer

Ephesians 5:18
And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

I am now drunk on the new wine, the Holy Spirit of God leads and I am free to love in the same mercy and truth given me to all, thank you

It's still popular in Brazil it called Cachaça pronounced kah·cha·kah.

It's obvious that what JESUS MADE for the wedding in Cana wasn't "Grape juice" according to the words of the governor of the party.

There's no reason to assume that ANY "WINE" mentioned Biblically was non-alcoholic.

Trivia: Welshes grape juice was originally formulated as a "Communion element" for teetotaling denominations, and the standard communion tray has two levels which enable the separation of grape juice from the REAL stuff - depending on the denomination's paradigm about alcohol, AND so that recovering alcoholics can avoid exposure to it. In the United church of Christ, the center section is juice, and the outer section is Wine.

Consumption of alcohol IS NOT forbidden biblically, but there are specific situations listed where alcoholic beverages are forbidden.

"New Wine" is alcoholic, and still has active yeast which can make some folks sick.

Hard liquor is also recommended for people in mourning.

Personally I enjoy Sweet wines (Gewurztraminer for example) but my heart medicines indicate against much consumption.

Makes no sense to me?:

The PURE Body Of The Lord Is Represented by "UNleavened bread" (NO bacteria/germs?)

but:

The PURE BLOOD Of The Lord Jesus Is Represented by alcoholic wine (with bacteria/germs?)

Repeat: Makes no sense to me

Amen.

It is speaking of alcoholic wine. It means those who desire to be deacons must be sober individuals not given to getting drunk which would cause their minds to be muddled/foggy when they must make decisions concerning the Church/Congregation IMO.

The requirements for Bishop are even more strict:

2A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

3Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;

Meaning they are not to partake of alcoholic drink. Kinda messes up how the Catholic Bishops live, huh?

As Scripture says (and someone here said) "moderation."

I'm not criticizing anyone who has a drink, but I do not. The last alcoholic drink I had was February 13th 1983. Same day I fully gave myself to Jesus. I have never missed it. Not once.

???

John 2:
9 When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew the governor of the feast called the bridegroom,
10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.

Wine and the Bible:
(A Seven-Point Summary):

A Study by Bible Highlighter.


A. The Three Types of Wine in the Bible:

The Bible mentions three distinct types of wine: unfermented wine (freshly squeezed grape juice), fermented wine (strong in alcoholic content), and wine diluted with water (mildly intoxicating). In the ancient Near East and throughout the Mediterranean, wine was commonly mixed with water across various cultures. The term “wine,” as defined in various dictionaries, encompasses both fermented and unfermented grape juice, allowing biblical references to use “wine” to indicate any of these types, depending on the context.

For clarification, the three types of wine referenced in the Bible are:

1. Unfermented Wine or Freshly Squeezed Grape Juice (A non-intoxicating beverage)
   (Genesis 40:11; Isaiah 65:8; Deuteronomy 32:14; Matthew 26:29)
   This type of wine is non-intoxicating and is simply fresh grape juice.
2. Fermented Wine (Strong in alcoholic content)
   (Proverbs 20:1; Proverbs 23:31; 1 Timothy 3:1-3)
   This is wine with a high alcoholic content, commonly referenced in cautionary contexts.
3. Fermented Wine Diluted by Water (Low in alcoholic content)
   (Proverbs 9:2; 1 Timothy 5:23)
   This wine was commonly mixed with water, reducing its intoxicating effect and making it more suitable for regular consumption.

I believe that Old Testament Israelites primarily drank this third type of wine, fermented wine diluted with water. This was the wine present at the Wedding of Cana, where Jesus, as part of His miracle, turned water into unfermented wine (fresh grape juice). Unlike the stronger wines of today, the wines in biblical times were much milder due to dilution. When Jesus created grape juice, it was considered the “best wine.” Today’s wines are often judged by flavor rather than by their level of intoxication.


B. Wine Mixed with Water:

The ancient Israelites and other Near Eastern cultures drank wine mixed with water, as this was a common practice in the ancient Near East and throughout the Mediterranean. Mixing wine with water served several purposes:

• Reducing Alcohol Content: Diluting the wine made it less intoxicating, making it more practical for daily consumption and social gatherings.
• Sanitation: The alcohol in wine helped purify water that might not have been entirely clean, so mixing wine with water was seen as a way to make water safer to drink.
• Conserving Wine: Wine was often a valuable resource, so diluting it helped make it last longer.

The Talmud and other Jewish writings also refer to the practice of diluting wine with water, with some texts even suggesting ideal proportions, typically around 2 or 3 parts water to 1 part wine. This custom was so ingrained that undiluted wine was often considered too strong and even uncouth in certain settings.

Several scriptures also reflect this practice of diluting wine with water:

• Revelation 14:10:
  "The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation…"
  (Contrast with Psalm 75:8, where God’s judgment is poured without dilution.)
• 1 Timothy 5:23:
  "Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities."
  Paul’s advice here implies using a small amount of wine mixed with water for medicinal purposes.
• Proverbs 9:2 (NIV):
  "She has prepared her meat and mixed her wine; she has also set her table."
• Isaiah 1:22 (CJB):
  "Your silver is no longer pure; your wine is watered down."

Wine was often transported undiluted in leather skins and then diluted with water before use. The process of diluting wine made it safer for consumption, similar to how copper is added to silver to strengthen it for practical use. In the same way, mixing wine with water diluted its potency and made it suitable for everyday life in ancient Israel.

Extra-Biblical Sources:
Additional support for this practice can be found in 2 Maccabees 15:39, the Talmud, and writings by Justin Martyr, which document the custom of mixing wine with water.



C. Six Biblical Reasons Why Jesus’s Miracle Was Unfermented Wine (Fresh Grape Juice):

If Jesus had made alcoholic wine, it would contradict key principles in Scripture. Here are six reasons that support the view that Jesus created non-intoxicating grape juice at the wedding in Cana:

1. Jesus’s Pure Blood is Symbolized by Pure Wine:
   Jesus’s blood purifies us from sin. Alcohol, as a symbol of decay, does not represent Christ’s purity. "Thou didst drink the pure blood of the grape" (Deuteronomy 32:14) suggests that Jesus created pure, non-alcoholic grape juice.
2. Woe to Him Who Gives Strong Drink:
   "Woe unto him that giveth his neighbor drink" (Habakkuk 2:15). If Jesus had served alcoholic wine, He would have contradicted this woe.
3. Wine is Not for Kings, and Jesus is a King:
   "It is not for kings to drink wine" (Proverbs 31:4). As the King of Kings, Jesus would honor this instruction by avoiding strong drink.
4. Warnings Against Alcohol:
   Proverbs 20:1 states, “Wine is a mocker.” Strong drink misleads and is dangerous, contrasting with the purity and integrity Christ embodied.
5. Creating Alcohol Would Violate Sober-Mindedness:
   At the wedding, the guests were already “well drunk” (John 2:10). Creating more alcohol would risk further impairing them, contradicting the call to sober-mindedness (1 Peter 1:13).
6. Christ Set a Good Example with His Miracle:
   Romans 14:21 advises against causing others to stumble. Making alcoholic wine could lead others into temptation, which Jesus would avoid.

D. Wine, Knowledge, and Our Conscience:

A saint may drink today’s wine without condemnation if it is for medical reasons, as Paul advises Timothy. However, we are called not to tempt the Lord or indulge in substances that may harm our faith or influence others negatively.

For example, if a fellow believer sees you drinking wine and expresses concern about its impact on their own struggles with alcohol, would it not be best to abstain? Or if a new believer once struggled with alcohol and felt tempted by the sight of wine used in the Lord’s Supper, is it wise to place them at risk?

Jesus calls us to self-denial and sensitivity to others’ weaknesses. We are called to pursue holiness and avoid associations with the unfruitful works of darkness.


E. The 20 Warnings Against Alcohol in the Bible:

These passages caution against alcohol itself, not merely drunkenness:

Passages for the Old Testament Saint:

1. Deuteronomy 29:5-6 - God provided no grape juice or intoxicating drink in the wilderness so Israel would know Him.
2. Deuteronomy 32:33 - The enemy's wine is like the poison of serpents compared to the Israelites' "pure blood of the grape" (verse 14).
3. 1 Samuel 1:14-15 - Hannah, accused of drunkenness, said she drank no wine.
4. Proverbs 4:17 - Alcoholic drink is called the “wine of violence.”
5. Proverbs 20:1 - Wine is a mocker; strong drink is raging.
6. Proverbs 23:31 - God instructs not to look at intoxicating drinks.
7. Proverbs 23:32 - Alcoholic drinks bite like a serpent and sting like an adder.
8. Proverbs 23:35 - Alcohol makes the drinker insensitive to pain, inhibiting warnings. It is also habit-forming.
9. Proverbs 31:4-5 - Kings, princes, and others who rule and judge must not drink alcohol, as it perverts judgment.
10. Ecclesiastes 2:3 - The king tried everything, including intoxicating drink, to find satisfaction but did not (cf. Ecclesiastes 12:8).
11. Ecclesiastes 10:17 - A land is blessed when its leaders do not drink.
12. Isaiah 5:22 - There is a woe to those who mix strong drinks.
13. Jeremiah 35:2-14 - The Rechabites drank no grape juice or intoxicating wine and were blessed.
14. Daniel 1:5-17 - Daniel and his friends refused the king’s intoxicating wine and were blessed for it.
15. Hosea 4:11 - Intoxicating wine seduces the heart.

Passages for the New Testament Saint:

1. 1 Timothy 3:2-3 - Bishops (elders) are to be temperate, sober, and avoid wine.
2. 1 Timothy 3:8 - Deacons are to be respected and not drinkers.
3. 1 Timothy 3:11 - Deacons’ wives are to be temperate and sober.
4. Titus 1:7-8 - A bishop is not to be given to wine.
5. Titus 2:2-3 - Older men and women of the church are to be temperate and not addicted to wine.

(Continued in next post):



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F. The Deadly Nature of Alcohol:

In my study of alcohol, I’ve concluded that it is a mild poison and highly addictive. Alcohol’s dehydrating and dissolving properties make it harmful to the body, especially with repeated use. Alcoholic wine is a product of decay and death. God creates things full of life and goodness, yet alcohol’s very nature reflects the opposite. It is an effective solvent: it can clean coins, dry out fruit, or even preserve meat. It behaves the same within or outside the body, dehydrating and destroying living tissue. Fortunately, our immune system counteracts its effects, but alcohol’s toxic properties remain dangerous, especially in excess. Studies affirm this risk:

• Brain Health: Research in the UK suggests that even moderate drinking can damage the brain. (The Guardian, 2017)
• Global Mortality: In 2011, 2.5 million people died due to alcohol-related causes. (NCADD)

"Wine is a mocker; strong drink is raging" (Proverbs 20:1). It deceives those who partake and, as Proverbs warns, can “bite like a serpent and sting like an adder.” Let us heed these warnings, honoring God in our choices for health and holiness.


G. The Consequences of Alcohol Abuse in Biblical Narratives:

Throughout the Bible, there are instances where the misuse of wine leads to significant moral failings or tragic outcomes. These stories serve as stark warnings against the dangers of excessive drinking and its impact on one’s life, relationships, and spiritual walk:

• Noah’s Drunkenness (Genesis 9:20-23):
  After the flood, Noah became drunk and lay uncovered in his tent, leading to dishonor and family conflict.
• Lot’s Daughters (Genesis 19:30-36):
  Lot’s daughters used wine to intoxicate their father, leading to immoral actions and grave consequences.
• Belshazzar’s Feast (Daniel 5:1-4):
  King Belshazzar hosted a lavish feast, mocking God by using sacred vessels while drinking wine, leading to his downfall that very night.
• Warnings from Proverbs (Proverbs 23:29-35):
  Proverbs vividly warns of wine’s dangers, describing how it “bites like a serpent and stings like an adder,” leading to poor judgment and entrapment.

These examples show that alcohol misuse can bring dishonor, poor decisions, and spiritual consequences, underscoring the Bible’s cautionary message.



Conclusion:

In exploring the role of wine in the Bible, we see a complex picture that includes three distinct types of wine: fermented wine with strong alcoholic content, fermented wine diluted with water to lower its potency, and unfermented wine, or freshly squeezed grape juice. The Scriptures acknowledge all three, particularly the common practice of mixing wine with water to reduce the risk of intoxication, conserve resources, and purify water. This approach made wine safer for daily use and social gatherings in ancient Israel.

However, the Bible emphasizes caution, repeatedly warning of wine’s dangers and the potential for strong drink to harm judgment, health, and relationships. Both Old and New Testament believers were reminded to treat wine with respect, aware of its potential to deceive and bring harm.

When Christ performed His miracle at the wedding in Cana, He provided a pure, non-intoxicating drink, a reflection of His own sinless nature and a choice consistent with the wisdom of Scripture. The evidence suggests that His “best wine” was fresh grape juice, free from decay and capable of symbolizing His life-giving blood. Jesus’s life and teaching reflect a commitment to purity, setting a standard for sobriety and sober-mindedness among His followers.

Alcohol in excess is undeniably destructive, as confirmed by both Scripture and modern studies. The Bible’s twenty warnings against it reveal that God’s people are called to live with wisdom and self-control, avoiding substances that impair judgment or cause others to stumble. In a world where the dangers of alcohol are well-known, believers are urged to make choices that honor God, safeguard their health, and show love to others who may struggle.

Ultimately, Scripture calls us to be set apart, pursuing holiness in every area of our lives. As we follow Christ’s example, let us use our freedom with care, choosing actions that honor God and benefit those around us. Whether abstaining or using wine wisely for medicinal purposes, we are called to seek the good of others and uphold the purity of our faith.



Side Note:

As a strong believer that the King James Bible, along with the original languages it is based on, contains the perfect and inerrant words of God, I hold the KJV as my final authority in all matters of faith and doctrine. Though I may occasionally reference Modern Bibles, like in this write-up, when they align with the wording of the KJV, if you come across any quotes from a Modern Bible that differ significantly from the KJV’s wording, please don’t hesitate to let me know.


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If you are interested, you can access my write up on Wine and the Bible here in this thread as a downloadable PDF by clicking on the image or the hyperlinked words.




Wine and the Bible - PDF



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Check out my write up.
You may find it helpful.

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for which, interestingly, the scripture does not condemn him - in fact, when he pronounces curses over the events that ensued, he prophesies, God carrying those curses out - something you wouldn't expect if Noah's actions were damnable.

claiming that Noah's having drunk the wine he spent years making, and then falling asleep to be the root cause of what Ham did is pretty far fetched, imo
Noah sinfully tempted Ham because he fell asleep in his own tent? hmm.

but this common eisegesis is 100% contradicted by John 2:10 kjv

zero out of a billion wine critics would describe ocean-spray© as "the good wine"
100% would mark it in the category "that which is worse"

case is closed here.

It was definitely wine.... real wine. 😆

It wasn't a big deal back then and even today in many countries. It's a sin to get drunk.

I don't see the big deal, but I'm not addicted to it. Any addiction is a sin though. Gluttony is a sin, but we can't just stop eating food in general. Wine has antioxidants in it.

I don't know why Christians are so against wine, but it's a sin too. Think about Eve in the garden "we can't eat the fruit....or even touch it!" That was a lie and she was trying to use man's will to stop from doing it. It's the same idea with wine. Dont even touch it! That's a sin.. you can have it, just not a lot of it like anything.

You are not grasping what I am saying. The governor of the feast refers to the type of wine used at such parties as the fermented wine diluted with water (Which is mildly intoxicating). However, this governor is pointing out how people are concerned about the taste and not with the greatness of how it will intoxicate them. Jesus' wine is said to be the "best wine" (unfermented wine) by the governor because of the taste and not because of the level of alcohol content. In fact, in Brazil, they have a grape juice that is appears to be alcoholic when you drink it, but in reality it is non-alcoholic. It also has an amazing flavor, as well. It is called Aurora. Great stuff. At least, that was my experience several years back. So my point here is that the guests could have had something like Aurora grape juice, and they would have thought this was a fermented wine mixed with water (but in reality it was pure unfermented wine, i.e. grape juice).



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