Gods will vs mans free will

Yes, it would be eminently understandable given the psycho-babble theology you hug to your bosom.

EDIT:

All men have seen the manifestation of Christ. All men have the testimony of His miracles. Right in their lap, right on their phones.
Everyone everywhere all the time.

Some believe on His Name, some refuse to believe and CONTINUE do evil.
And they that REFUSE to repent and REFUSE to believe on His Name and do evil continue to FOLLOW their father THE EVIL ONE.
Right into the lake of fire.

Jhn 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye *** will*** do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

EDIT:
All men have seen the manifestation of Christ.

I agree.
The LORD hath made known his salvation ... all the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God. Psalms 98:2-3
... thy salvation, 31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people; Luke 2:30-31
... the gospel ... Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. Romans 10:16-18
... the word of the truth of the gospel; 6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world ... Col 1:5-6
... the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven Col 1:23
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Titus 2:11

Delivered how exactly?

Kicking and screaming and denying? Or pleading, petitioning and begging?

There is FIRSTLY the "COME" (this offer a result of the COMPLETED WORK OF JESUS GOD).
And then there are the WILL's and the WILL NOT's.
Thats how it works buddy. Simple as that.

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Rev 22:17
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

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Mat 8:2
And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.

Mat 8:5
And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him,

Mat 9:18
While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live.

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Jhn 5:40 - And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Luk 13:34
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!

Jhn 5:43
I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

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Case closed.

Here's an unsaved (not born of the Spirit) man making a good choice concerning spiritual things:
Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas, 30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? Acts 16:29-30 (KJV)

Here's another unsaved man making a good choice:
And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. Luke 18:13 (KJV)

Here's an unsaved (not born of the Spirit) woman making a good choice concerning spiritual things:
The woman then left her waterpot, and went her way into the city, and saith to the men,
29 Come, see a man, which told me all things that ever I did: is not this the Christ? John 4:28-29 (KJV)


None of these unsaved people were making any attempt to deceive others. They were in earnest.

Case opened again.

All of the scriptures must harmonize, if you are to understand the truths contained within them.

John 6:37 explains who it is that will "COME" to him, and it is not the natural man. Only those that have been borne by spiritual birth.

Case opened again.

All of the scriptures must harmonize, if you are to understand the truths contained within them.

John 6:37 explains who it is that will "COME" to him, and it is not the natural man. Only those that have been borne by spiritual birth.

I agree.
The LORD hath made known his salvation ... all the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God. Psalms 98:2-3
... thy salvation, 31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people; Luke 2:30-31
... the gospel ... Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. Romans 10:16-18
... the word of the truth of the gospel; 6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world ... Col 1:5-6
... the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven Col 1:23
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Titus 2:11

You have just confirmed that you did not read or understand my earlier post:

https://christianchat.com/threads/gods-will-vs-mans-free-will.216406/post-5375889

1Co 2:14
But the natural man receiveth G1209 not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Outline of Biblical Usage

1. to take with the hand
   1. to take hold of, take up
2. to take up, receive
   1. used of a place receiving one
   2. to receive or grant access to, a visitor, not to refuse intercourse or friendship
      1. to receive hospitality
      2. to receive into one's family to bring up or educate
   3. of the thing offered in speaking, teaching, instructing
      1. to receive favourably, give ear to, embrace, make one's own, approve, not to reject
   4. to receive. i.e. to take upon one's self, sustain, bear, endure
3. to receive, get
   1. to learn

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It is obvious that this "natural man" REFUSES to "take up", "take hold of" "receive" "learn"
of HIS OWN FREE WILL. A conscious choice that has been made.

And here is the OT reference. One that NOBODY seems to understand or even care to know.

2Ki 6:5
But as one was felling a beam, the axe head fell into the water: and he cried, and said, Alas, master! for it was borrowed.
2Ki 6:6
And the man of God said, Where fell it? And he shewed him the place. And he cut down a stick, and cast it in thither; and the iron did swim.
2Ki 6:7
Therefore said he (the Man of God), Take it up to thee. And he put out his hand, and took it.

Don't blame God because He is outside of time and knows the end from the beginning.
Satan does this kind of blame game all the time. And yes, God knows who will repent. He knows everything all the time at all times.
And yes, God has his book of life already filled out.......as far as He is concerned. But that definitely DOES NOT affect our free will
or sovereign choice.

BTW......Jesus God knew certainly that Judas-Satan would refuse the sop of honor and fellowship. But He offered it anyway.
The implications are of course staggering.

Jhn 13:26
Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon.
Jhn 13:27
And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.

Can you honestly make the judgement that Judas is not a child of God?

"as a NATION they would be apostates!"

That is utterly false. More like insane. Crazy talk. What in the world is wrong with you?

There were UNTOLD THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS of truly believing and faithful Israelites. All through the ages. There was ALWAYS a faithful remnant.

Do you want me to make a list?

You know: Moses, Joshua, Caleb, Elijah, Elisha, Samuel, David, Davids mighty men, Zacharias, the Mary's plural, John the Baptist.

Any more of that nonsense and you are going on ignore.

Absolutely yes. "Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. Jesus knew Judas did not believe from the beginning, calling him an unclean devil and son of perdition, meaning doomed to destruction. No child of God is doomed to destruction.

Judas was an unbeliever and is a devil . . . . . . . John 6:64-71
Judas was spiritually unclean . . .. . . . . . . . . . . . . John 13:11
Judas is lost and is the son of perdition . . . . . . John 17:12
Judas was not kept by Jesus . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . John 17:12; 18:9

John 13:10-11 Jesus said to him, “He who is bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and
you are clean, but not all of you.” For He knew who would betray Him; therefore, He said, “You are not all clean.”

Judas was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus. (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11)

John 17:12 - While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me
I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled.

John 18:9 - that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, "Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none." Jesus
did not lose Judas. Judas was already lost. Judas was not included in those "whom the Father gave to Jesus to be kept."

With thanks to @mailmandan .

The fact of your darkened (and clueless) mind is evident to all who walk in the light.
But more importantly, you have no Biblically founded answer.

Spoken by a guy who clearly loves the darkness because he loves himself so much.

But the text says that the "natural man" CANNOT UNDERSTAND -- so...how can he respond positively to that he simply cannot understand. He cannot understand them because they are "spiritually discerned". He needs the Holy Spirit, to discern/understand. Pretty easy to understand, straightforward passage. And it makes sense since one of the unilateral promises of the New Covenant is that God would give his chosen people his Spirit. Why would God give such an awesome gift if the recipients didn't need it?

Also, spiritual understanding comes from God. God is the source of all wisdom, knowledge and understanding. All these, too, are gifts of God.

The natural man is darkened in his understanding, separated from the life of God (dead because he doesn't have the Holy Spirit) due to the ignorance in him and the hardening of his heart (Eph 4:18).

Also, evil men do not understand justice (Prov 28:5).

Also, God has hidden things from the worldly wise (Mat 11:25-26).

And salvation is far from the wicked for they do not seek out God's decrees (his Word), cf. Ps 119:155.

Also, the wicked (fools) despise godly wisdom (Prov 1:7).

Nor does the natural man have any love for the Gospel (2Thes 2:10).

Also, the natural man hates God and his Son (Isa 49:7; Zech 11:8-9; Ps 2:1-3; Jn 7:7; 15:23; Rom 8:7-8).

In addition to hating the Creator and Redeemer, the natural man hates spiritual knowledge (Prov 1:29).

And the natural man cannot acquire spiritual wisdom since they have no desire for it (Prov 17:16)

And even worse, the natural man has no way to shun evil because they have no desire to choose the Fear of the Lord (Prov 1:29), which itself is a precious gift of God promised under the New Covenant.

And it get even worse because the Fear of the Lord (a disposition of the heart) is the beginning of wisdom and knowledge -- and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding (Prov 9:10).

And those who hate spiritual wisdom and knowledge LOVE DEATH (Prov 8:36 and cf. Eph 5:8; Jn 12:46).

So, given all these facts, these present some very serious dilemmas to wit:

How can anyone be saved since natural man inherently hates Wisdom (Prov 1:7) and Knowledge (Prov 1:22, 29) that they're supposed to diligently and earnestly seek after in God's Word? This is Dilemma Number One: How is man to seek after that which he despises?

Dilemma Number Two: There is no Fear of God in they eyes of the Natural Man (Rom 3:18), for men hate Knowledge and, therefore, cannot choose to Fear God for the very reason they have no desire to! But yet...the Fear of the Lord is the precursor and the key (Prov 1:7; 9:10; Isa 33:6) to seeking the very Wisdom and Knowledge they hate! The sons of men are caught up in a very pernicious cycle from which there is no escape. They are indeed helpless, powerless (Rom 5:6), hopeless prisoners of the Darkness of Death within this vicious, cyclonic whirlwind. It seems to me they desperately need to be rescued (Col 1:13).

But there's still another problem: Dilemma Number Three. True, personal, intimate Knowledge of the Holy One IS true, ultimate Understanding. So, now we have the Word of God defining for us what ultimately true spiritual understanding is -- what the locus of it is! But as we have learned, no one wants that Knowledge anymore than they want to Fear the Lord in order to acquire it! Paul knew what he was talking about in Romans when he said, "No one understands" (Rom 3:11), or that the darkness did not comprehend the light (Jn 1:5). Paul also said there is "no Fear of God in the eyes of men" (Rom 3:18). Yet, in Proverbs 8, we're told that Wisdom and Understanding are supreme and we should get Understanding even it cost us everything we have. Yet, none of this is possible for the Natural Man because he hates Wisdom and Knowledge. And they can't get either of these because they will not/cannot fear God!

It would be foolhardy for anyone to discount or dismiss this tripartite dilemma, since the Fear of the Lord is no small biblical theme. And it so significant in Solomon's mind that he concluded his second Wisdom Book with this:

Eccl 12:13-14
13 Now all has been heard;
here is the conclusion of the matter:
Fear God and keep his commandments,
for this is the whole [duty] of man.
14 For God will bring every deed into judgment,
including every hidden thing,
whether it is good or evil.
NIV

As I often said on this forum on various threads, the commands in the bible presuppose only man's duty towards God, not his ability to obey. Man lost that ability when Adam sinned! And Solomon agrees with me, for after giving the command to fear God he tells us why. And the reason isn't that we have the spiritual ability to obey (v.13).

If it weren't for the sovereign, gracious gifts God promised under the New Covenant, i.e. new heart, indwelling Holy Spirit and God's instillment of the Fear of the Lord in his elect's hearts, no man would be saved.

Can you honestly make the judgement that Judas is not a child of God? Scripture tells us that he was a birth child of Jacob.

God says in Luke 1:33 that he shall reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

God's children, when they are walking in the flesh, can do some very nasty things, as evidenced in Rom 1.