Gods will vs mans free will
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I agree.
The LORD hath made known his salvation ... all the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God. Psalms 98:2-3
... thy salvation, 31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people; Luke 2:30-31
... the gospel ... Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. Romans 10:16-18
... the word of the truth of the gospel; 6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world ... Col 1:5-6
... the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven Col 1:23
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Titus 2:11
The LORD hath made known his salvation ... all the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God. Psalms 98:2-3
... thy salvation, 31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people; Luke 2:30-31
... the gospel ... Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. Romans 10:16-18
... the word of the truth of the gospel; 6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world ... Col 1:5-6
... the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven Col 1:23
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Titus 2:11
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None of the above. The natural man is spiritually dead in sins, as we all are when we are born into this world by natural birth.
Eph 2:1-5 explains the transition of the natural man in becoming a spiritual man, especially verse 5 - Even when we were dead in sins, hath he quickened us together with Christ. (by grace ye are saved).
All of those that were given to Christ by his Father were delivered by the blood of Christ with the promise of an inheritance of heaven.
Christ was a sacrifice to deliver those that his Father gave him, and that sacrifice was an offering to God, for God's acceptance, and not an offering to mankind for their acceptance. (John 6:37-40) Those that his Father gave to him were chosen before the foundation of the world and predetermined to be adopted as his children, making them accepted (Eph 1:4-7)
There was a onetime deliverance with the promise of an eternal inheritance for God's people.
There are many deliverances for God's people as they sojourn here on earth such as: When they commit a sin, they separate themselves from God's fellowship because God will not fellowship sin, even turning his back on his only begotten Son, as he bore the sins of God's people. There is a deliverance (salvation that is not eternal) when the child of God repents of the sin that he has committed.
There is an eternal deliverance (salvation) that is given by the grace of God for those that were given to his Son, and there is also a deliverance (salvation) that is gained by the good works of his children as they sojourn here on earth,
Rightly dividing the word of God requires an understanding the difference in our eternal salvation, and our salvations that we earn by our obedience to God's commandments.
Eph 2:1-5 explains the transition of the natural man in becoming a spiritual man, especially verse 5 - Even when we were dead in sins, hath he quickened us together with Christ. (by grace ye are saved).
All of those that were given to Christ by his Father were delivered by the blood of Christ with the promise of an inheritance of heaven.
Christ was a sacrifice to deliver those that his Father gave him, and that sacrifice was an offering to God, for God's acceptance, and not an offering to mankind for their acceptance. (John 6:37-40) Those that his Father gave to him were chosen before the foundation of the world and predetermined to be adopted as his children, making them accepted (Eph 1:4-7)
There was a onetime deliverance with the promise of an eternal inheritance for God's people.
There are many deliverances for God's people as they sojourn here on earth such as: When they commit a sin, they separate themselves from God's fellowship because God will not fellowship sin, even turning his back on his only begotten Son, as he bore the sins of God's people. There is a deliverance (salvation that is not eternal) when the child of God repents of the sin that he has committed.
There is an eternal deliverance (salvation) that is given by the grace of God for those that were given to his Son, and there is also a deliverance (salvation) that is gained by the good works of his children as they sojourn here on earth,
Rightly dividing the word of God requires an understanding the difference in our eternal salvation, and our salvations that we earn by our obedience to God's commandments.
Don't blame God because He is outside of time and knows the end from the beginning.
Satan does this kind of blame game all the time. And yes, God knows who will repent. He knows everything all the time at all times.
And yes, God has his book of life already filled out.......as far as He is concerned. But that definitely DOES NOT affect our free will
or sovereign choice.
BTW......Jesus God knew certainly that Judas-Satan would refuse the sop of honor and fellowship. But He offered it anyway.
The implications are of course staggering.
Jhn 13:26
Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon.
Jhn 13:27
And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.
Satan does this kind of blame game all the time. And yes, God knows who will repent. He knows everything all the time at all times.
And yes, God has his book of life already filled out.......as far as He is concerned. But that definitely DOES NOT affect our free will
or sovereign choice.
BTW......Jesus God knew certainly that Judas-Satan would refuse the sop of honor and fellowship. But He offered it anyway.
The implications are of course staggering.
Jhn 13:26
Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon.
Jhn 13:27
And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.
If you want to know why these people were "in earnest", they all are eternally saved.
They are his sheep. Christ's Father gave them to Christ and Christ gave them eternal life. (John 10:26-29)
You have no knowledge of the meaning of "saved". Look it up. Strongs concordance says that it means "delivered"
Eternal deliverance is not gained by mankind's works.
However, a deliverance is given to God's children as they sojourn here on earth by their good works.
Rightly dividing the word requires rightly dividing eternal deliverance from deliverances that are gained by the good works of God's children as they sojourn here on earth.
They are his sheep. Christ's Father gave them to Christ and Christ gave them eternal life. (John 10:26-29)
You have no knowledge of the meaning of "saved". Look it up. Strongs concordance says that it means "delivered"
Eternal deliverance is not gained by mankind's works.
However, a deliverance is given to God's children as they sojourn here on earth by their good works.
Rightly dividing the word requires rightly dividing eternal deliverance from deliverances that are gained by the good works of God's children as they sojourn here on earth.
But the text says that the "natural man" CANNOT UNDERSTAND -- so...how can he respond positively to that he simply cannot understand. He cannot understand them because they are "spiritually discerned". He needs the Holy Spirit, to discern/understand. Pretty easy to understand, straightforward passage. And it makes sense since one of the unilateral promises of the New Covenant is that God would give his chosen people his Spirit. Why would God give such an awesome gift if the recipients didn't need it?
Also, spiritual understanding comes from God. God is the source of all wisdom, knowledge and understanding. All these, too, are gifts of God.
The natural man is darkened in his understanding, separated from the life of God (dead because he doesn't have the Holy Spirit) due to the ignorance in him and the hardening of his heart (Eph 4:18).
Also, evil men do not understand justice (Prov 28:5).
Also, God has hidden things from the worldly wise (Mat 11:25-26).
And salvation is far from the wicked for they do not seek out God's decrees (his Word), cf. Ps 119:155.
Also, the wicked (fools) despise godly wisdom (Prov 1:7).
Nor does the natural man have any love for the Gospel (2Thes 2:10).
Also, the natural man hates God and his Son (Isa 49:7; Zech 11:8-9; Ps 2:1-3; Jn 7:7; 15:23; Rom 8:7-8).
In addition to hating the Creator and Redeemer, the natural man hates spiritual knowledge (Prov 1:29).
And the natural man cannot acquire spiritual wisdom since they have no desire for it (Prov 17:16)
And even worse, the natural man has no way to shun evil because they have no desire to choose the Fear of the Lord (Prov 1:29), which itself is a precious gift of God promised under the New Covenant.
And it get even worse because the Fear of the Lord (a disposition of the heart) is the beginning of wisdom and knowledge -- and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding (Prov 9:10).
And those who hate spiritual wisdom and knowledge LOVE DEATH (Prov 8:36 and cf. Eph 5:8; Jn 12:46).
So, given all these facts, these present some very serious dilemmas to wit:
How can anyone be saved since natural man inherently hates Wisdom (Prov 1:7) and Knowledge (Prov 1:22, 29) that they're supposed to diligently and earnestly seek after in God's Word? This is Dilemma Number One: How is man to seek after that which he despises?
Dilemma Number Two: There is no Fear of God in they eyes of the Natural Man (Rom 3:18), for men hate Knowledge and, therefore, cannot choose to Fear God for the very reason they have no desire to! But yet...the Fear of the Lord is the precursor and the key (Prov 1:7; 9:10; Isa 33:6) to seeking the very Wisdom and Knowledge they hate! The sons of men are caught up in a very pernicious cycle from which there is no escape. They are indeed helpless, powerless (Rom 5:6), hopeless prisoners of the Darkness of Death within this vicious, cyclonic whirlwind. It seems to me they desperately need to be rescued (Col 1:13).
But there's still another problem: Dilemma Number Three. True, personal, intimate Knowledge of the Holy One IS true, ultimate Understanding. So, now we have the Word of God defining for us what ultimately true spiritual understanding is -- what the locus of it is! But as we have learned, no one wants that Knowledge anymore than they want to Fear the Lord in order to acquire it! Paul knew what he was talking about in Romans when he said, "No one understands" (Rom 3:11), or that the darkness did not comprehend the light (Jn 1:5). Paul also said there is "no Fear of God in the eyes of men" (Rom 3:18). Yet, in Proverbs 8, we're told that Wisdom and Understanding are supreme and we should get Understanding even it cost us everything we have. Yet, none of this is possible for the Natural Man because he hates Wisdom and Knowledge. And they can't get either of these because they will not/cannot fear God!
It would be foolhardy for anyone to discount or dismiss this tripartite dilemma, since the Fear of the Lord is no small biblical theme. And it so significant in Solomon's mind that he concluded his second Wisdom Book with this:
Eccl 12:13-14
13 Now all has been heard;
here is the conclusion of the matter:
Fear God and keep his commandments,
for this is the whole [duty] of man.
14 For God will bring every deed into judgment,
including every hidden thing,
whether it is good or evil.
NIV
As I often said on this forum on various threads, the commands in the bible presuppose only man's duty towards God, not his ability to obey. Man lost that ability when Adam sinned! And Solomon agrees with me, for after giving the command to fear God he tells us why. And the reason isn't that we have the spiritual ability to obey (v.13).
If it weren't for the sovereign, gracious gifts God promised under the New Covenant, i.e. new heart, indwelling Holy Spirit and God's instillment of the Fear of the Lord in his elect's hearts, no man would be saved.
Also, spiritual understanding comes from God. God is the source of all wisdom, knowledge and understanding. All these, too, are gifts of God.
The natural man is darkened in his understanding, separated from the life of God (dead because he doesn't have the Holy Spirit) due to the ignorance in him and the hardening of his heart (Eph 4:18).
Also, evil men do not understand justice (Prov 28:5).
Also, God has hidden things from the worldly wise (Mat 11:25-26).
And salvation is far from the wicked for they do not seek out God's decrees (his Word), cf. Ps 119:155.
Also, the wicked (fools) despise godly wisdom (Prov 1:7).
Nor does the natural man have any love for the Gospel (2Thes 2:10).
Also, the natural man hates God and his Son (Isa 49:7; Zech 11:8-9; Ps 2:1-3; Jn 7:7; 15:23; Rom 8:7-8).
In addition to hating the Creator and Redeemer, the natural man hates spiritual knowledge (Prov 1:29).
And the natural man cannot acquire spiritual wisdom since they have no desire for it (Prov 17:16)
And even worse, the natural man has no way to shun evil because they have no desire to choose the Fear of the Lord (Prov 1:29), which itself is a precious gift of God promised under the New Covenant.
And it get even worse because the Fear of the Lord (a disposition of the heart) is the beginning of wisdom and knowledge -- and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding (Prov 9:10).
And those who hate spiritual wisdom and knowledge LOVE DEATH (Prov 8:36 and cf. Eph 5:8; Jn 12:46).
So, given all these facts, these present some very serious dilemmas to wit:
How can anyone be saved since natural man inherently hates Wisdom (Prov 1:7) and Knowledge (Prov 1:22, 29) that they're supposed to diligently and earnestly seek after in God's Word? This is Dilemma Number One: How is man to seek after that which he despises?
Dilemma Number Two: There is no Fear of God in they eyes of the Natural Man (Rom 3:18), for men hate Knowledge and, therefore, cannot choose to Fear God for the very reason they have no desire to! But yet...the Fear of the Lord is the precursor and the key (Prov 1:7; 9:10; Isa 33:6) to seeking the very Wisdom and Knowledge they hate! The sons of men are caught up in a very pernicious cycle from which there is no escape. They are indeed helpless, powerless (Rom 5:6), hopeless prisoners of the Darkness of Death within this vicious, cyclonic whirlwind. It seems to me they desperately need to be rescued (Col 1:13).
But there's still another problem: Dilemma Number Three. True, personal, intimate Knowledge of the Holy One IS true, ultimate Understanding. So, now we have the Word of God defining for us what ultimately true spiritual understanding is -- what the locus of it is! But as we have learned, no one wants that Knowledge anymore than they want to Fear the Lord in order to acquire it! Paul knew what he was talking about in Romans when he said, "No one understands" (Rom 3:11), or that the darkness did not comprehend the light (Jn 1:5). Paul also said there is "no Fear of God in the eyes of men" (Rom 3:18). Yet, in Proverbs 8, we're told that Wisdom and Understanding are supreme and we should get Understanding even it cost us everything we have. Yet, none of this is possible for the Natural Man because he hates Wisdom and Knowledge. And they can't get either of these because they will not/cannot fear God!
It would be foolhardy for anyone to discount or dismiss this tripartite dilemma, since the Fear of the Lord is no small biblical theme. And it so significant in Solomon's mind that he concluded his second Wisdom Book with this:
Eccl 12:13-14
13 Now all has been heard;
here is the conclusion of the matter:
Fear God and keep his commandments,
for this is the whole [duty] of man.
14 For God will bring every deed into judgment,
including every hidden thing,
whether it is good or evil.
NIV
As I often said on this forum on various threads, the commands in the bible presuppose only man's duty towards God, not his ability to obey. Man lost that ability when Adam sinned! And Solomon agrees with me, for after giving the command to fear God he tells us why. And the reason isn't that we have the spiritual ability to obey (v.13).
If it weren't for the sovereign, gracious gifts God promised under the New Covenant, i.e. new heart, indwelling Holy Spirit and God's instillment of the Fear of the Lord in his elect's hearts, no man would be saved.
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Can you honestly make the judgement that Judas is not a child of God? Scripture tells us that he was a birth child of Jacob.
God says in Luke 1:33 that he shall reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
God's children, when they are walking in the flesh, can do some very nasty things, as evidenced in Rom 1.
God says in Luke 1:33 that he shall reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
God's children, when they are walking in the flesh, can do some very nasty things, as evidenced in Rom 1.
Absolutely yes. "Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. Jesus knew Judas did not believe from the beginning, calling him an unclean devil and son of perdition, meaning doomed to destruction. No child of God is doomed to destruction.
Judas was an unbeliever and is a devil . . . . . . . John 6:64-71
Judas was spiritually unclean . . .. . . . . . . . . . . . . John 13:11
Judas is lost and is the son of perdition . . . . . . John 17:12
Judas was not kept by Jesus . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . John 17:12; 18:9
John 13:10-11 Jesus said to him, “He who is bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and
you are clean, but not all of you.” For He knew who would betray Him; therefore, He said, “You are not all clean.”
Judas was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus. (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11)
John 17:12 - While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me
I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled.
John 18:9 - that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, "Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none." Jesus
did not lose Judas. Judas was already lost. Judas was not included in those "whom the Father gave to Jesus to be kept."
With thanks to @mailmandan .
Judas was an unbeliever and is a devil . . . . . . . John 6:64-71
Judas was spiritually unclean . . .. . . . . . . . . . . . . John 13:11
Judas is lost and is the son of perdition . . . . . . John 17:12
Judas was not kept by Jesus . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . John 17:12; 18:9
John 13:10-11 Jesus said to him, “He who is bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and
you are clean, but not all of you.” For He knew who would betray Him; therefore, He said, “You are not all clean.”
Judas was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus. (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11)
John 17:12 - While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me
I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled.
John 18:9 - that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, "Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none." Jesus
did not lose Judas. Judas was already lost. Judas was not included in those "whom the Father gave to Jesus to be kept."
With thanks to @mailmandan .
That's precisely what I said. But that doesn't mean that each and every person in the nation was an apostate but the vast majority of Jews were. Check their history out in the bible some day. The Israelites were three-time losers.
There was even a small remnant in Egypt who remained faithful to the Lord -- for example the two Hebrew midwives who refused to obey Pharaoh. But that didn't stop Joshua from characterizing the Israelites as idol worshipers, did it?
And thanks for the short list of all those many thousands. At least we know that the servants God called to himself remained faithful. That doctrine is called Effectual Calling.
There was even a small remnant in Egypt who remained faithful to the Lord -- for example the two Hebrew midwives who refused to obey Pharaoh. But that didn't stop Joshua from characterizing the Israelites as idol worshipers, did it?
And thanks for the short list of all those many thousands. At least we know that the servants God called to himself remained faithful. That doctrine is called Effectual Calling.
Absolutely yes. "Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. Jesus knew Judas did not believe from the beginning, calling him an unclean devil and son of perdition, meaning doomed to destruction. No child of God is doomed to destruction.
Judas was an unbeliever and is a devil . . . . . . . John 6:64-71
Judas was spiritually unclean . . .. . . . . . . . . . . . . John 13:11
Judas is lost and is the son of perdition . . . . . . John 17:12
Judas was not kept by Jesus . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . John 17:12; 18:9
John 13:10-11 Jesus said to him, “He who is bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and
you are clean, but not all of you.” For He knew who would betray Him; therefore, He said, “You are not all clean.”
Judas was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus. (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11)
John 17:12 - While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me
I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled.
John 18:9 - that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, "Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none." Jesus
did not lose Judas. Judas was already lost. Judas was not included in those "whom the Father gave to Jesus to be kept."
With thanks to @mailmandan .
Judas was an unbeliever and is a devil . . . . . . . John 6:64-71
Judas was spiritually unclean . . .. . . . . . . . . . . . . John 13:11
Judas is lost and is the son of perdition . . . . . . John 17:12
Judas was not kept by Jesus . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . John 17:12; 18:9
John 13:10-11 Jesus said to him, “He who is bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and
you are clean, but not all of you.” For He knew who would betray Him; therefore, He said, “You are not all clean.”
Judas was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus. (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11)
John 17:12 - While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me
I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled.
John 18:9 - that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, "Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none." Jesus
did not lose Judas. Judas was already lost. Judas was not included in those "whom the Father gave to Jesus to be kept."
With thanks to @mailmandan .
Ps 69:25
25 May their place be deserted;
let there be no one to dwell in their tents.
NIV
Ps 109:6-20
6 Appoint an evil man to oppose him; let an accuser stand at his right hand. 7 When he is tried, let him be found guilty,and may his prayers condemn him. 8 May his days be few;may another take his place of leadership. 9 May his children be fatherless and his wife a widow. 10 May his children be wandering beggars;may they be driven from their ruined homes. 11 May a creditor seize all he has; may strangers plunder the fruits of his labor. 12 May no one extend kindness to him or take pity on his fatherless children. 13 May his descendants be cut off,their names blotted out from the next generation. 14 May the iniquity of his fathers be remembered before the LORD;may the sin of his mother never be blotted out. 15 May their sins always remain before the LORD,that he may cut off the memory of them from the earth. 16 For he never thought of doing a kindness,but hounded to death the poor and the needy and the brokenhearted. 17 He loved to pronounce a curse — may it come on him;he found no pleasure in blessing — may it be far from him. 18 He wore cursing as his garment; it entered into his body like water, into his bones like oil. 19 May it be like a cloak wrapped about him,like a belt tied forever around him. 20 May this be the LORD's payment to my accusers,to those who speak evil of me.
NIV
P.S. Judas is the poster child of Spurious Faith.
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Spoken by a guy who clearly loves the darkness because he loves himself so much.
I love the Jews with a special kind of love. They are the apple of God's eye after all.
But you Reformed types? You all have hated the Jews for a very long time.
Tragic. But not unexpected.
Wow. Of course Judas was not saved. He was never saved. He was a fraud from the beginning.
And ONLY JUDAS is described is such a way that no other person in existence has ever been described.
Jhn 6:70
Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
Jhn 13:2
And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him;
Jhn 13:27
And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.
Jhn 17:12
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
BTW....Jesus LOVED Judas-Satan. With a perfect love. As evidenced by the giving of the sop.
Just like He loves Hillary and Joe and Obama.
And ONLY JUDAS is described is such a way that no other person in existence has ever been described.
Jhn 6:70
Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
Jhn 13:2
And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him;
Jhn 13:27
And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.
Jhn 17:12
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
BTW....Jesus LOVED Judas-Satan. With a perfect love. As evidenced by the giving of the sop.
Just like He loves Hillary and Joe and Obama.