Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.

You have that promise of Salvation, but you have to ENDURE until the end. What part of that do you not get, the point is anyone can turn away from God. That is why Jesus said only 5 of the 10 virgin brides will make the Marriage in Heaven. That ratio also matches the Matt. 24:36-51 ONE TAKEN and ONE LEFT. Only half the church will make the Rapture my sister. God sees the heart.

People better grasp this. Sell out for Jesus, if you cling to this world Jesus says you are not of God.

I did not.........at least not on purpose, I came back to get the verse, I had John 3:16 pilled up, so I might have accidently OFFEED IT..........But my rebut is to your John 3:18 premise sister, which is why I stated, "You have the PROMISE of Salvation, but you still have to ENDURE.

How to 5 of the 10 virgins not make it to the Marriage Sister? THINK. Why did Jesus tell his own disciples you MUST ENDURE until the end. Yes, you can Salvation by the mouth, and its yours for the keeping, but you can then reject God if you so desire, that just common sense.

Roger, looking back at your quote of verse one where he stated that it was addressed to the twelve tribes. Twelve tribes, I hope we can both agree, is Jews, not Gentiles. Spiritualizing the text to try and enlarge it to include those who could not possibly have been of the twelve tribes, that's very, very suspect, especially considering that he wrote his epistle before Paul had received revelation of the mystery and began to preach it on his first missionary journey.

James does not tie so easily into the language used in Acts to the extent that we cannot take thw words of James for what they say, so I'm therefore suspect of that tactic as well dare we become careless in drawing parallels that don't belong to each other in a comparative sense.

Additionally, James and the other apostles at that time were still preaching the Kingdom Gospel, which included works, faith, water baptism, repentance, and also observing that the Jews were still zealous for the Law. Paul's Gospel of Grace did not require works for justification, where the gospel preached by James did. I also don't buy the over-expansion of James' words by the tactic some have tried to employ in that Jesus completed the works for us. That would render the word of James silly at best, for he made no mention of Christ having fulfilled what he is instructing his Jewish audience to understand and practice.

If a Jehovah's Witness or Mormon tried to use similar tactics in support of their beliefs, you would call them out onto the carpet (or at least I would hope that you would call them out on that), so I hope you will appreciate my lack of so easily believing in these similar tactics whereby one injects concepts and meaning into a text that leaves no room for such in the way it is worded, such as a command, directive, instruction, etc.

MM

NO, we definitely cannot agree on that. In order to demonstrate that they were not Jews (earthly Jews), is exactly the reason
I included the other verses. They, without question, show that the Jews of verse 1 are spiritual Jews.

Then we simply agree to disagree. Subjectively tying those other verses into that one verse written by James as to whom he was addressing...no. That's what's to messed up with Western Christianity, with Gentiles trying to force themselves into any and every nook and cranny they can slip by the awareness of others.

If those Jew were in Christ, then they would no longer be Jews, for in Christ there is no Jew nor Gentile. James would have addressed them as the "body of Christ" or the "churches scattered abroad" or some other distinguishing identifier, but he didn't.

Sorry, but spiritualizations almost always are found to serve only a subjective purpose in the arena of interpretations, and I'm simply not buying the forced meaning into the text that you're trying to perpetrate here.

Did you come up with that on your own, or were you taught that by your "pastor" or "Sunday school" teacher? This is very similar to a teaching that I heard from Joel Osteen Benny Hinn some years ago. Almost everything those guys teach I find to be suspect. I hope you're not following them.

MM

Okay so you believe in a works based salvation that is earned by your behavior and not a gift from God. I 100% disagree and believe this is a false gospel. I feel bad you have the full weight of salvation on your shoulders and would suggest that you submit yourself to the TRUE God through Jesus and take on His light yolk. SO much better than this works righteousness you're teaching. If you say you can lose salvation you believe your own behavior is what ultimately saves you, not Gods grace. I couldn't disagree more and name this a false gospel that cannot save.

I read the Bible - that is my sole spiritual authority

Now, you're conflating the official end of one dispensation with the judgment of the people with who were disobedient.

Yes, Christ did come in judgment against Israel in 70 A.D., but that is not be confused with the Parousia.

I still maintain that God did not have two very different, contradictory covenants overlapping in time and space, which is what you believe. And the writer to Hebrews also believed as I do since he wrote that the OC was indeed obsolete at the time of his writing. What was getting ready to disappear[ in the future] was the most outstanding symbol of that OC, which was the temple with its Levitical priesthood, its sacrifices -- everything outwardly connected to the Mosaic Law Covenant. You would have a very strong case if the writer of Hebrews spoke also of the obsolescence in the future tense, but he doesn't. Just because corporate Israel didn't believe the OC had been abrogated at the Cross doesn't mean that God didn't do that very thing upon his Son's death.

That's simply not true. There are numerous scriptures that teach that God keeps his saints in this age.

Ok. Where does God pour out His wrath on Israel before the destruction of the temple?

Could have fooled me.

If you really truted God. you would give him the glory and not think he would fail.

If a person could lose salvation. God failed that person..

If you were just disagreeing with me I would agree 100 %

Actually. No they do not. Because they would still be condemned where they stand

The command to persevere is for those living in the tribulation period. If you can endure til the end (when Christ returns) you will be saved (physically)

Preterism! I knew there was something off about your take on it all, and now we see what it is.

MM

Can you show me a command from scripture that thou shalt persevere?

Your assertion is a logical nonsequitur, actually. If you become saved by becoming in Christ through faith, and remain saved by abiding in Christ, by continuing to trust Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour, not because of works; then you could lose your salvation by ceasing to trust Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour, and you are not saving yourself by your own works but are continuing to be saved by maintaining ongoing faith in Jesus Christ. Faith is not a work. Works issue out of faith (ek pisteOs), but the faith those works issue from is not itself a work, any more than an apple that issues from an apple tree is not an apple tree.

If an apple tree develops a disease in its roots that produces a symptom of rottenness in the fruit, and the tree resists treatment that would heal it, the orchardist may destroy the tree because of the disease in the tree that is causing the rotten fruit. She is not destroying the tree because of the fruit, but because of the trees resistance to treatments for the disease that the fruit evidences.

Your assertion, "No matter what, teaching we can lose our salvation IS believing in a works based salvation. There's no way around it rationally or logically. If it's something that we can lose then, #1 we are not "saved" when we're born again, and #2 we can only earn salvation by obeying well enough," is logically fallacious. We receive salvation not by works but by putting our trust in Christ. Obeying well enough has nothing to do with becoming in Christ, remaining in Christ and being found in Christ on resurrection day.

Your assertion, "That strips away anything that can be called grace and drops the full weight of salvation on our shoulders. There's NO WAY AROUND THIS. None," may be a bold assertion stated with conviction, but it is not actually true.

God won't fail. He is omnipotent. No one can thwart anything He is determined must happen. We disagree on the number of things God has determined and will determine must happen.