Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.

But faith is also a gracious gift of God (Eph 2:8-9). There is nothing that any saint has that he has not received from God's hand (1Cor 4:7; 1Pet 2:10, etc.). God's elect are not only justified by faith but by grace as well (Rom 3:24). Abraham understood all this and this great truth humbled him, thus he gave all glory to God for his salvation.

And where in scripture does God ever give credit to man for His salvation?

Yes, both are indeed true, but both do not apply to any people at the same time, especially today.

Just as the command to obey the Mosaic Law to the Jews before the cross was true, and was to them, it is not TO us today, even though it is true.

MM

Jesus did indeed say to the Jews that they must persevere unto the end to be saved, and that same Jesus told Paul that we are saved by grace, not works and faith. Additionally, that same Jesus also told the ancient Jews that they must obey ALL the Law. Every one of those statements is TRUE, but they are not all to the same people at the same time.

Also, repayment according to what they have done, that is speaking of reward. Forcing salvation into that context is questionable at best for the motives behind trying to force the meaning of Paul's words as touching upon salvation as opposed to reward.

MM

If you're going to try expanding the Kingdom Gospel over into the Gospel of Grace, then why not also expand the Gospel of Law over into all the others? After all, if it's all the same, then you appear to think you have license to subjectively pull all of the things of your choosing under one overarching Gospel narrative. In doing that, you do nothing but introduce confusions into your personal system of theology that cannot be reconciled.

Blessedly, that has no effect upon any others around you and those here. Your personal methods for interpretation remain within mainstream, resting upon which is an appeal to popularity, not necessarily absolute truth; the reality of which the majority has missed as is demonstrated throughout biblical history.

MM

Yes, I just posted an answer to Everlasting grace about this verse. If you read verse 18 with verse 19 you will see that the ones who went out from them were the “antichrist.” Not everyone who leaves the faith are called “antichrist.” Some, like Paul says in Galations 5:4 FELL FROM GRACE because they were trying to be saved by keeping the old law of Moses. John gives the cause for the Christians at Ephesus FALLING as because they had left their first love. The “FALLEN AWAY” Christians in Hebrews 6 were described by the Holy Spirit AS having “become entangled in the world AGAIN. They had already been in the world once when the were not saved; then they “escaped” the world when they became Christians, and then they became entangled AGAIN-a second time. Believing they were never saved, is equal to believing they NEVER ESCAPED AT ALL and that is denying and contradicting what the Holy Spirit says. I wonder if that would constitute “speaking against the Holy Spirit” which is the unpardonable sin?? I’m not saying it is —but it seems to me to come close.

He didn't address it to the Jews; He addressed it to his spiritual brethren: the saved which are the spiritual Jews, but not because they were of the nation of Israel. Those with faith (see below), have been saved making them his spiritual brethren. Likewise, the twelve tribes represent spiritual Israel- the Israel of God- not the nation of Israel. They were "scattered abroad" because of their beliefs - they were spiritually persecuted as Christians. So, the book of James was addressed primarily to Christians.

[Jas 1:1 KJV]
1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

[Act 8:4 KJV]
4 Therefore they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the word.

[Act 11:19 KJV]
19 Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only.
[Act 11:21 KJV]
21 And the hand of the Lord was with them: and a great number believed, and turned unto the Lord.

[Jas 1:3 KJV]
3 Knowing [this], that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

[Jas 1:6 KJV]
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

There is no commandment to persevere to the end. Comments about perseverance are descriptive, not prescriptive. In other words, those who are truly saved do persevere to the end.

Yes. This is a person who has claimed they had faith in God, and now have denied him in unbelief (the no longer believe)

these people are against Christ. They were never saved.

so those who claim we can believe today and not believe tomorrow and those epoeple fell from grace or lost salvation. are in error
Why are you trying to isolate a group of people I am not a calvinist by the way.. so you just hurt your own argument by trying to attach to everyone that they are calvinist.

1st off who fell away? The author of Hebrews does nto say anyone fell away, His exact words were "if they fall away" In fact his whole argument, it says it is impossible. if they fall away.. the important words are the next words. "to renew them again to repentance"

So you see, Like in 1 John, The author hewre (many believe is paul. I am not sure) is saying to those who are trying to return to the law. which as a legalistic gospel. teaches one can fall away, and then need to get resaved again by animal sacrifice. is arguing against this self righteous belief,

If a person could fall away (as the law says) they could never be re-saved again.

so those who say you can fall away, and then get re-saved, are proven to be in error.

so a second aspect of it is possible to lose salvation is destroyed (first they believed then they do not believe. second they could fall away because of sin, and then get re-saved again)

Those in Gal 5 never actually received grace, They had it in their hands, and before they came to faith, they walked away and returned to what their true faith was, which was the law.

Do people who reject grace. are the for Christ or against him? Answer this question correctly and you will answer your own question
Yes, And you definitely need to heed this advise..
3 My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment.

Amen to this,, I pray you take this to heart. I know I do.

We're very close not only in our understanding of the Word of God but also in our hermeneutical approach to scripture, which actually accounts for why we agree on so much. What you call "global" meaning, I call the "canonical" approach (all scripture); and what you call "local", I call "epochal" (a particular dispensation). The challenge in rightly understanding any given text in scripture is to see how the pieces (e.g. any given passage) fit into the whole.

I think James fully understood that Faith is a two-sided coin. One side is the heart-felt belief in the Gospel whereby God justifies the sinner; the other side is the inevitable faithfulness that must flow from that kind of faith. Therefore, faith has a theological and practical definition. I see James' focus in his epistle on this latter side of the coin: Faithfulness. And being faithful to God is desiring to do his will. A couple of times in his epistle he exhorts his readers to not deceive themselves. He wants them to understand that since they have professed Christ with their talk, that is but their first step in the walk -- now...they must continue to walk in obedience and faithfulness because of what God has done in them, to them and through them by the Holy Spirit. He's trying to impress the truth upon them that it would be totally incongruous for them to merely talk their faith while not walking it simultaneously -- by not living that faith out day-to day due to what God has already done within them. He didn't want them to misunderstand the true nature of saving faith, which accounts for the warnings about being deceived.

So when James goes on to say (using Abraham as an example) "that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone" (2:24), I see him as saying that such a person (like Abraham) proved his faith, and thus his justification by faith and grace, to the world by his faithful obedience. I do not see James saying that Abraham justified himself by his obedience. Rather, I see Jame's statement as saying how others would see such a faithful person. Others would see a faithful servant of God as justified precisely because he has proven his faith. They would see the Abrahams of the world as qualified, true blue, real deal believers because of their good deeds.

So that's my additional 2 cents worth. Now, I'm up to a nickle.

Does that include inflation? 😊

Not so if one is truly chosen by God. If and elect child has been given the gifts of grace, faith, repentance, etc., then those gifts are his forever. For it is written:

Rom 11:29
29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
NASB

God is not an Indian giver. He does not give with one hand and take with the other.

Your right, Not only does it NOT mean we will never sin again, john warns us to not think we would ever arrive at this state. by saying if we (he included himself) say we have no sin (present tense) we are deceived.

so lets not be deceived

True. so we should NEVER think we have arrived, and can never be tempted to do these things. Thats why we are under grace not under law. If we are under law If we did any of these things, or even knew to do right but did not do it, we would sin, and at that moment our salvation would be terminated. And remember, The author of Hebrews said we can not go back to being saved. It would be too late to repent. because we would be lost forever. we have fallen away

It is impossible. We did nto save ourselves. we can not keep ourselves saved, its all a work of the cross.

Why do you want to put yourself and others back under law. why do you reject grace?

No we do not, we just have to be climbing the mountain on the way to reaching the top. Not everyone who fell reached their goal. Our goal is salvation. God is working to draw us to himself. It is he who is reaching our. doing everything he can to pull you to the top of that mountain, If you fall before you reach the goal. It does not mean you were ever at the top.

Again, You have to much self in your gospel. remove self from the gospel. don;t make the same mistake the jews made.. You will be lost right along with them

Eternal life is eternal if God wanted us to think we had conditional life he would tell us. he would definitely not say we had eternal life. and then promise he would never leave nor forsake us..

You can;t leave God. Once your his, your his, you get out of line, he will correct you. You get out of reach, he will bring you home (sin unto death) but he will never lose you. We have the promise not ony from Jesus but the father, that of all the father God gave him, he would never lose one..



lol.. I feel sorry for you.. Keep trying to save yourself

I will look to God the author and finisher of my faith

While I can appreciate this and I personally hate labels, for example I do believe once God saves us, we are SAVED, I do NOT believe OSAS as most here that argue against it as if we are saved and therefore free to sin as much as we want to now with no worry about condemnation. I despise that just as much and Paul answers this strait up when he says "so should I now sin so grace may abound, BY NO MEANS". So I can understand the argument against this "OSAS". However, no matter what teaching we can lose our salvation IS believing in a works based salvation. There's no way around it rationally or logically. If it's something that we can lose then, #1 we are not "saved" when we're born again, and #2 we can only earn salvation by obeying well enough. That strips away anything that can be called grace and drops the full weight of salvation on our shoulders. There's NO WAY AROUND THIS. None. So while I can agree with your comment here I can also say that regardless of the nice arrangement of words, if you believe salvation can be lost, then everything I said in the first comment holds true. It has to, there's no way around it.

Not sure I'm understanding the question. But...since the OC was conditional and bilateral in nature, making it radically different from the New, I would have to say Israel's disobedience. Both kingdoms broke the OC. But I don't see what that has to do about what epoch in scripture marked the beginning and end of the period called the "last days".

Let me toss out another idea, which is also very closely related to my understanding of the period being between the two advents of Christ: Just as there are two advents, there are two creations. The first creation was of the physical, temporal, visible world; whereas the New Creation is spiritual, eternal and invisible that is inaugurated in God's elect redeemed people and is consummated at our resurrection when the entire universe and this world will be restored to even beyond its former Edenic glory. So what if the "last days" began at the beginning of the New Creation (Christ's life, death, burial and resurrection) and will end at the Parousia which is when we'll be resurrected and the entire universe will be recreated?

[QUOTE="Musicmaster, post: 5361440, member: 305060"]If you're going to try expanding the Kingdom Gospel over into the Gospel of Grace, then why not also expand the Gospel of Law over into all the others? After all, if it's all the same, then you appear to think you have license to subjectively pull all of the things of your choosing under one overarching Gospel narrative. In doing that, you do nothing but introduce confusions into your personal system of theology that cannot be reconciled.

Blessedly, that has no effect upon any others around you and those here. Your personal methods for interpretation remain within mainstream, resting upon which is an appeal to popularity, not necessarily absolute truth; the reality of which the majority has missed as is demonstrated throughout biblical history.

MM [/QUOTE]

Because there is no such animal as the "Gospel of Law". Where is the good news in the a law that could only condemn us, since no one was ever able to keep it perfectly, save for Christ!? And there's nothing "in my personal system of theology" (so-called) that I cannot reconcile. I recognize that there is both Continuity and Discontinuity in scripture, but do you? Man has always been saved by grace through faith -- from the very beginning to the very end.

You said only God can know if someone is saved. The same principle applies here. So in 1 or 2 or a few posts you are claiming nobody but God can know and you mock those who say they can know but then you turn around and claim you know. If I wasn't on my phone I would get some music for you to sing and dance to while you twist in the wind.

Appreciate the answer. And Israel's disobedience was the reason the old covenant came to an end. But their measure of disobedience wasn't full until they killed Jesus. But God can't simply end the covenant upon Jesus' death. He must still render the sanctions upon Israel for her failure to live up to the stipulations of the covenant. And this is what the book of Revelation is concerned with. Christ indeed came again, this time in glory and judgment, visiting the wrath of God on disobedient Israel. By destroying the temple, God destroyed the place He made His presence known to Israel. In doing so, God severed His ties to corporate Israel and ended the covenant.

Of course salvation can be "LOST" but not really, but yes REALLY. Sounds illogical right? Well, the point is Jesus told his disciples in Matt. 24:13 that they must endure until the end for a reason, ones salvation only comes at death. Is there blood applied or not.

Its like watching a pro football game and lets say Miami is ahead 17-0, everyone will say they are winning 17-0 right? But if they lose 27-17, then when they we ahead 17-0 at the half they were LOSING up 17-0 not winning !! No one has salvation or condemnation until they die, that is why Jesus said say not who is saved nor condemned, that is God's alone, no one can know a man's heart.

You can KNOW Jesus, receive Jesus, but then reject Jesus and accept the world and on judgment day Jesus will say, depart from me for I never knew you to those who cast out Demons in his name and preached in his name etc. etc.

Those once saved guys do not understand we are only saved once we pass over in Christ, we can reject Jesus at any moment in time, just like Judas did.

@Rondonmon you said: No one has salvation or condemnation until they die, that is why Jesus said say not who is saved nor condemned, that is God's alone, no one can know a man's heart.

Please see John 3:18