Will There Be A Rapture?
- Thread starter DavyP
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
I will try, and you have a nice day too. And please... read those Bible Scriptures I have covered in this Thread.
Many on man's Amill position try that ploy often, trying to link the Premill position with Darby's false Dispensationalism and a pre-trib rapture theory.
The Bible position is Premill, that Jesus' future return and His Kingdom will be literally established upon this earth, and at that time there will begin a period reign of a "thousand years", as shown in Revelation 20.
John Nelson Darby, who first taught a pre-trib rapture theory in 1830's Great Britain, created a type of Bible dispensationalism that was designed to support the pre-trib rapture theory. It declared a rapture of the Church prior to the "great tribulation" (which is not Biblical), and the Church remains in Heaven with Jesus throughout the trib, and then returns with Jesus after the trib.
Those ideas by Darby are not written in God's Word, so there's really no authentic reason to try and link that with the Biblical Premill doctrine of Jesus' future Kingdom only being established on the day of His future return, and then the "thousand years" period of His reign over all nations and peoples per Rev.20 and Psalms 2.
Like Lord Jesus said in John 18:36, His Kingdom is not of this present world. If it were He said, then His servants would fight that He would not have been delivered up to be crucified. This present time since Jesus died on the cross, His Kingdom is only established here on earth in Spirit through His many-member body, His Church. But His literal Kingdom will only come here on earth with His future return.
And this next part is a WARNING against deception for those on the Amill position:
There exists some groups of men today, believers on Jesus Christ, that actually believe that it is up to them to bring Christ's 'literal' Kingdom here on earth, for this 'present' world time. Many of their followers are blinded as to who those leaders behind that are. Their leaders are not Christ's chosen, but political types like the Pharisees, and even worse, some of them are Satan's servants of the "synagogue of Satan". They are helping to prepare the deceived of today's Christian world for the coming false-Christ. They will promote that false-Christ as being the return of our True Lord Jesus Christ when it will be a fake. These same leaders behind that movement are the same ones that will deceive the Orthodox Jewish community with bowing to that coming false-Messiah to Jerusalem.
What criticism do you have for those who believe the kingdom is already here, has been since Pentecost, believe it's in them, and see it growing progressively?
The only "rapture" I see in the Bible is in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, where Jesus comes down from heaven with the souls of believers who have died. We who are still alive will rise to meet him and them in the air, while he raises all of us to give us our eternal bodies. The Final Judgment will take place, and the new universe will be created as our eternal home.
I only offer criticism to doctrines of men that go against God's written Word, which the Amill position definitely does. One of the biggest clues that the Amill position is false is the fact that if today were already Christ's Kingdom to come on earth, then why is Jesus not here de facto on earth reigning like the Scriptures proclaims, and why are the wicked still at work for the devil, and that Peter even warned that the devil is still roaming like a lion seeking whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8). There's simply too many Bible Scriptures that the Amill position disregards.
But you referred to Acts 2 Pentecost, didn't you?
Acts 2:16
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
KJV
Are you aware of what those Joel 2 Scriptures are about that Peter showed Pentecost was an example of? Those Joel 2 verses are about the very end of this world, especially for the time of "great tribulation" which is still to come. Per Mark 13 Jesus foretold us that some of us will be delivered up to give a Testimony for Him against the beast, and to not premeditate what we will speak in that 'hour', but speak what The Holy Spirit gives us. This is the true... purpose for the 'cloven tongue' of Pentecost in the last days just prior to the "day of the Lord", which is what Joel 2 is pointing to.
Thus the events of Acts 2 Pentecost, with claiming it proves Christ's literal Kingdom began on earth right then, is still a man-made doctrine that goes against the Scriptures. Like Jesus said in John 18, His Kingdom, meaning His literal Kingdom to be manifest upon this earth by His return and reign, is NOT of this present world time.
I have to disagree with that idea that Christianity is growing progressively today. It's actually at a stage today where many are leaving the Church, as attendance in the West is down.
And per God's Word about the end of this world, we have been forewarned that the end will be a time when some of us will be delivered up to give a Testimony for Jesus against them (Mark 13; Revelation 11 as the "two candlesticks" actually means two of the seven Churches that will prophesy along with God's "two witnesses" during the 6th Trumpet-2nd Woe period; Rev.2:9, Rev.3:9; Rev.13:4-8 with the dragon given 42 months power over all nations and peoples at the end, and overcoming the saints during that time.)
Therefore, if the world system for the end that you are claiming is Christ's progressive Kingdom on earth, then one immediately needs to question why is the devil himself going to be running it, with Jesus not having returned yet?
“The Bible is clear that there is a thousand years between the first and second resurrection. “
“Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,”
Ezekiel 37:12-13 KJV
“Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: and whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.”
John 11:25-27 KJV
“and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”
Matthew 27:52-53 KJV
“Verily, verily, I say unto you,
(1) The hour is coming,( future )
(2) and now is, when ( the present tense then )
the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, ( good and bad )
and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;
and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
John 5:25, 28-29 KJV
There’s a resurrection each time Jesus comes to earth one when he came then fulfilling the ot promise of a resurrection of the people . And then there’s another resurrection promised to new testement believers of the gospel when Jesus returns again from heaven
the first resurrection was promised tomosrsel when tbier messiah and savior would come and be born as an Israelites son and then a second resurrection is promised when Jesus comes back as he promised in tbe New Testament
There are two resurrection because each testament has to be fulfilled and each ends with a promise of resurrection when messiah comes
The thousand years represents an extended period of time between Christs first and second coming and the testament it corresponds to
As to the literal thousand years and us counting them as literal time periods
“But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.”
2 Peter 3:8 KJV
as to where they are riegning with Christ
“And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ:
for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. ( they lived in earth and died in faith now they are in heavens kingdom like Jesus promised until he returns to earth the second time and brings them with him )
Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them.
Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.”
Revelation 12:10-12 KJV
revelation isnt a continuous single linear vision it is several visions that aren’t always sequential but often layer , one upon another to clarify and reveal things to the reader about Christ and the kingdom and the world we live ins true spiritual state of conflict between Satan and mankind on earth
Hmmm...so Jesus possesses the keys to death and hell, tells His disciples He grow His church and hell can do nothing about it, that same church has been growing progressively throughout history, and none of this speaks to Who is ruling?
BTW...the kingdom exists in believers. The kingdom exists in the literal world, but it is not concerning the world. Kingdoms exist where the king is obeyed. The seat of obedience is the heart.
What end? Revelation is about the end of the world? The end of the old covenant?
I wonder if you could outline the books of Deuteronomy and Revelation. If you did, you would see the same outline. The first establishes a covenant, and the latter tells what happens when the stipulations in the covenant aren't lived up to. Check it out.
BASIC CONSIDERATION: "Eschatology" is a religious word for "Rank Speculation".
In my denomination (Assemblies of God), there is the belief that there'll be a "Catching away" of born again Christians BEFORE the 7-year tribulation period. For their "Theology" visit ag.org.
SO intellectually, I find a pre-trib rapture acceptable. If HE does things differently, oh well. It's nothing but "theology" anyway.
I find it pretty much unimportant, since my "intellectual belief" has no effect on it one way or another. Neither do I have to "Do anything" to "Get ready" for it. If it happens before 6:00 today, that'd be fine. No reason to hang around here a second longer than necessary.
If there won't be a rapture, pretty soon I'll be physically (and present with the Lord) anyway, so no big deal.
If you want to find where the church is growing, look to where it is being persecuted. Is the church waning in America and the western world? Sure. But it is growing in Africa and Asia.
But notice... @PennEd did NOT list that passage in Matthew 24 as being "pre-trib rapture"
(because "rapture" is NOT its CONTEXT. So, we pre-tribbers are NOT calling this Matt24 passage a proof for "pre-trib Rapture" because Jesus' Subject here in this passage is not covering "Rapture" but His Second Coming to the earth--See @PennEd 's scripture LIST on the RIGHT HAND side beneath where it lists "Matt24:15-31" under the heading of "Second Coming Passages" [not "Rapture Passages," which he placed on the LEFT side])
Again, Jesus is not covering the Subject of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" in this passage (Matt24); but He is covering what was ALREADY spoken of in Isaiah 27:9,12-13.
Leading up to (and INCLUDING Matt24-25), Jesus had NOT YET spoken ANYTHING regarding our Rapture; but all about His Second Coming TO THE EARTH, FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age commencing upon His "RETURN" there.
[example: "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." (as an ALREADY-WED "Bridegroom")... THEN "the meal [G347]" Lk12:36-37,38,40 and its parallel the Olivet Discourse--but notice the ppl in this text do not ever lift off the earth (Jesus is RETURNING to the earth, here in this text)]
You are INJECTING the word "caught-up" [Grk harpagēsometha - "snatch"] INTO the Matthew 24 passage, but which word is NOT there.
(Let the readers compare this "snatch" word ^ with Isaiah 27:9,12-13 [what Jesus was talking about in Matt24!] "and ye shall be gathered ONE BY ONE, O ye children of Israel" [and TO "WHERE"] to see that these ideas are NOT THE SAME!)
You are INJECTING this word (in blue) INTO this text (which word is not there).
["caught-up" [Grk harpagēsometha - "snatch" (Strong's G726)... is nowhere to be found in these contexts (His Olivet Discourse)]
"Eisegesis (/ˌaɪsɪˈdʒiːsɪs/) is the process of interpreting text in such a way as to introduce one's own presuppositions, agendas or biases. It is commonly referred to as reading into the text.[1]"
The simple matter is that Jesus' 1st coming was meek as a lamb to sacrifice Himself upon the cross, not to reign over all nations just yet, for that is about His future 2nd coming.
His Kingdom that is here today on earth is only by His Church through The Spirit. And His Church is not simply a building or a lawn with a sign on it that says Church. His Church today is of and by The Holy Spirit, something that His enemies cannot touch.
Thus assuming that Christ's 'literal' Kingdom has already come on earth today goes against many Bible Scriptures that proclaim His future 2nd coming and reign on earth then when He returns. And there is a LOT of Bible prophecy about that future event, especially in The Old Testament prophets. So those on the man-made Amill doctrine that like to attack the literal meaning of the "thousand years" reign per Rev.20 actually haven't even scratched the surface with going against that future reign by Christ at His return, because there's so much about it in the prophets. And what that suggests is that many Amills don't study the Old Testament prophets that much.
I really don't know what you're on about, but it suggests very un-Biblical ideas.
The Book of Revelation given by Christ to John was given to the Churches about the latter days. The parallel Bible Book that covers many of the same subjects is the Book of Genesis, not Deuteronomy.
All I can say to that, is what God said long ago...
Isa 2:22
22 Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of?
KJV
Heeding what men's doctrines say is not the same thing as what God's says in His Word.
Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV
I think I shall stick with what Lord Jesus Christ said above.
And what Church is that, one that joins their old African pagan blood rituals in with Christian doctrines? That kind of thing is happening with new converts in those lands too.
And when the coming false-Messiah shows up in our near future, working great signs and wonders to deceive the whole world, will Jesus find Faith on the earth still when He does return afterwards to defeat that false-Messiah?
The final showdown at the end of this world (the time of "great tribulation" Jesus taught), hasn't even come yet today, and you're already talking like the battle is over on earth. That tells me you really are not prepared for what is coming in our near future just prior to Christ's future return. Listen to Him, and not man.