Actually, it's Dispensational Premillennialism that "crept into the Church" in the mid-1800s.
Will There Be A Rapture?
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I saw these verses one day Hebrews 5:12- chapter 6. A long while back now, over 30 years ago. I saw I need the meat, it was time to get off the milk
I got a revelation about this physically about a year ago now. I ended up with two kittens that the mother abandoned. I got the milk and bottles needed for them both, fed them milk. Then one day they grew up and refused anymore milk. It was time for the meat.
An, amazing analogy swept over me. I need the meat Father, thank you, I do not know how you will get it to me, I just trust you will, As God never fails, even whenever it seems like is or has or is punishing me and is not, it is man in religion doing that with misinterpreting the love and mercy of God afraid,, they will take for granted this grace given, which in truth these are wanting to be God over you and take your money to boot, no thank you
Now as well, one day I saw off the edge of a cliff, in a dream, I looked over it, and saw how deep it was to the bottom of it, afraid
I heard God say Jump, take a leap of faith. I said no way, I am not stupid, I heard yes you are? I said no way, this cannot be you God.
I do pretty well trying to obey do I not? I am better that others am I not?
Then I heard, "I" do not understand this leap of faith, when to take a leap of Faith in God Father of risen Son, not believing God will catch me in the palm of God's hand. therefore one day. I jumped spiritually not forcefully as religion gets people to do forcefully, God does not at least for me to me and all others also, in my honest estimation
God does just love us all, otherwise that cross would never have taken place thanks
The 1st century Church fathers were all Premillennialists, so what you say is not possible. Oh, and by the way, Dispensationalism of the 1800's began in Britain with John Darby's teaching of a false pre-trib rapture theory. Premillennialism does not automatically include Darby's pre-trib rapture theory. The Premill position simply follows the written Bible Scripture.
Yes, and one of the most important things you said was about recognizing the difference between 'milk' and the 'strong meat'. Many only want to hear 'smooth things' taught in Church, staying on the 'milk' of God's Word (Isaiah 30-8:18; Hebrews 5). And lot of Church systems today are happy to oblige, raking in the money of those congregations. Those type of Churches are more about commercialism than houses of God.
And yet, 1 Corinthians 15:23 says, "[re: resurrection] BUT each IN HIS OWN ORDER / RANK" (which your viewpoint has no explanation for, treating these words as superfluous and meaningless);
... and [your viewpoint] by having all saints resurrected [and raptured, to return] "ON the last [24-hour] day of this world" (by which you apparently mean, at Christ's Second Coming to the earth in Rev19--just prior to His Millennial Kingdom age), it appears that you must conclude that people in "unbelief" [unsaved persons] are who ENTER [/are granted ENTRANCE INTO] the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom age upon its commencement, which simply is not the case.
I believe that notion is biblically untenable.
____________
[again, Luke 12:36-37,38,40-42 (and its parallel passage in the Olivet Discourse)... "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." ... THEN "the meal [G347]"--notice the people in this particular passage are neither dead [needing 'resurrection'], nor are lifting off the earth, but are present on the earth upon His "RETURN" there... and it's only "the faithful and wise / BLESSED" being the one (ones) who will... go past that point, i.e. INTO the MK age, in their mortal bodies (not the others who weren't); Dan12:12 puts it like this, "BLESSED is he that WAITETH and COMETH TO the 1335 days"]
Thanks but some things you the OP said are not written. Its clear this is not a debate but you telling us what His word is really saying case in point " that means brethren" but you don't stop there "So why... would a faithful servant of Jesus Christ want to listen to men's doctrines that steer one away from the written Scripture about Lord Jesus coming AFTER.." "Well, if you're trying to use that reasoning to support man's pre-trib rapture theory, that really does not work."
So its not worth talking about since you have not fully studied this no offense. Why say that? Again please no offense but you talk more then you back up what you believe. When I said not fully studied "John Darby's teaching of a false pre-trib rapture theory.". That is not where it came from. Caught up (rapture) happening before the great tribulation, if we studied we can read what other men of God said going back just to 1600. But lets keep going. I searched and its not a simple google search. I searched and found a hymn writer and preacher who wrote about Christ coming before the great tribulation. I saw the scrolls and they had one open.. some drawings were even on one. I then later saw this man white hare mustash on TBN when Paul and Jan were alive and very young. This man had a reg show on TBN ( I know his name any one can find him and the shows and what he said but many never truly studied) and he started talking about this Hymn writer and on and on. He showed the scrolls the writings on TV later months showed even more about others talking about caught up.
Now truth I was just searching on it because some said it started what 1830..I read that yet could be just be but i never got pre trib from that. So I wanted to just see if anyone talked about Christ coming before the great tribulation. Haha..well I was sad when I found out those scrolls by that hymn writer was dated 300-400ad. I thought that was to late. Now were talking what 20+ years ago. Yeah.. it just hmm gets me how..oh.. we have the world of information in our hands yet .. oh anyway.
Now the hymn writer didn't just talk there were scriptures all over but I always say this....it proves what? Nothing. It just proves it was talked about preached about. I am not here to do anyones work for them.. yeah you don't want me haha. See who is this about? Just sit back watch and listen or read and you find out this can take time who its really about. Should put this at the start.. I am no writer and spelling.. oh awful so please forgive me if its hard to understand.
Some read what i post.. as of late as of 63.. been over a week.. never hungry and lost some haha weight. I live by walk by faith.. never ask for prayer.. but maybe you can remember me. Not scared or worried.. thats the odd thing. Ooh man worry and haha.. when I was 15 the lord through someone else said "the lord said your a worry wart". I asked what does that mean? "you worry about nothing". that was spot on. Yet the odd thing here is.. no worry no fear nothing... like say your in bar (how did you get there? Anyway) its not the loudest guy you need to worry about but the quite one in the back never says a word. This is that.. its the no worry no fear. Its easy to talk to people not infront of you.. again I NEVER share. Can count on one hand where I ask for ..prayer. Please remember me
So its not worth talking about since you have not fully studied this no offense. Why say that? Again please no offense but you talk more then you back up what you believe. When I said not fully studied "John Darby's teaching of a false pre-trib rapture theory.". That is not where it came from. Caught up (rapture) happening before the great tribulation, if we studied we can read what other men of God said going back just to 1600. But lets keep going. I searched and its not a simple google search. I searched and found a hymn writer and preacher who wrote about Christ coming before the great tribulation. I saw the scrolls and they had one open.. some drawings were even on one. I then later saw this man white hare mustash on TBN when Paul and Jan were alive and very young. This man had a reg show on TBN ( I know his name any one can find him and the shows and what he said but many never truly studied) and he started talking about this Hymn writer and on and on. He showed the scrolls the writings on TV later months showed even more about others talking about caught up.
Now truth I was just searching on it because some said it started what 1830..I read that yet could be just be but i never got pre trib from that. So I wanted to just see if anyone talked about Christ coming before the great tribulation. Haha..well I was sad when I found out those scrolls by that hymn writer was dated 300-400ad. I thought that was to late. Now were talking what 20+ years ago. Yeah.. it just hmm gets me how..oh.. we have the world of information in our hands yet .. oh anyway.
Now the hymn writer didn't just talk there were scriptures all over but I always say this....it proves what? Nothing. It just proves it was talked about preached about. I am not here to do anyones work for them.. yeah you don't want me haha. See who is this about? Just sit back watch and listen or read and you find out this can take time who its really about. Should put this at the start.. I am no writer and spelling.. oh awful so please forgive me if its hard to understand.
Some read what i post.. as of late as of 63.. been over a week.. never hungry and lost some haha weight. I live by walk by faith.. never ask for prayer.. but maybe you can remember me. Not scared or worried.. thats the odd thing. Ooh man worry and haha.. when I was 15 the lord through someone else said "the lord said your a worry wart". I asked what does that mean? "you worry about nothing". that was spot on. Yet the odd thing here is.. no worry no fear nothing... like say your in bar (how did you get there? Anyway) its not the loudest guy you need to worry about but the quite one in the back never says a word. This is that.. its the no worry no fear. Its easy to talk to people not infront of you.. again I NEVER share. Can count on one hand where I ask for ..prayer. Please remember me
I explained a bit further in that post of mine that you said you didn't read (past the first paragraph).
Oh well.
[what you've put here, shows that you indeed disregard 1Th3:13, despite your brief response to my post that you only read the first paragraph of
]Just wanted to let you know that I appreciate your post.
Yes, the notion that "pre-trib rapture" teaching only began in the 1800s (JND) has been thoroughly debunked.
What I'm finding curious (and curious-er by the minute
) is how DavyP (the OP) is endorsing Bullinger in his Post #38 (and BTW I have his Companion Bible, as well as hard-copies of the other 3 books he recommends in that post [tho not via the website]), and Bullinger was EVEN MORE "dispensationalist" in his views (being what many call "ultra-dispensational" [Acts 28], or extreme dispensationalist).Sure, he has some good things to say... but he also has some incorrect ideas.
But my point being (for this post) is, that I find it rather odd that DavyP speaks so highly of one (Bullinger), who, if I'm not mistaken, ALSO BELIEVED in a "PRE-TRIB Rapture of the Church".
Here are his words from one of his books (speaking in the context of the "7 churches" of Rev2-3), where he says [brackets mine]:
"If [as he proposes] these 'churches' are future assemblies of Jewish believers on the earth, after the Church has been 'caught up to meet the Lord,' then all is clear, consistent, and easy to be understood."
--EW Bullinger, "The Apocalypse or the Day of the Lord"... page 71.
He views (as I do) Matthew 24 as referring to "the nation," Israel, (in the future Trib yrs), not "the Church [which is His body]" and our Rapture (per context). I can agree with him on that point (and pretty much entirely with what he writes, here): - [Appendix 155 to the Companion Bible] The Two Great Prophecies of "The End of The Age" (Luke 21 and Matthew 24. Mark 13). (therain.org)
... so since @DavyP DISAGREES with this, why is he promoting him (Post #38)... it makes little sense, to me... unless he just hasn't understood what Bullinger is saying here. Not sure.
Just my two cents.
[is something... fishy?? lol]
[I agree there's no "POST-trib rapture"]
But the part of your post I'm zeroing in on, is the part I enlarged and underlined.
In your scenario, all are either doomed or (the ones who REFUSE the mark) are martyred (the "saved")... thus you have ZERO mortals who will ENTER the MK age commencing upon His RETURN to the earth (Rev19).
This seems to go against the picture that Isaiah 65:20b presents, for one example.
How do you figure?
[also... during the MK age "death" will still exist, but will be much more rare, reserved only for the rebellious--but in your scenario, there will be NO MORTALS ]
Why in shame? Should we not be ready for his coming at any time? Pre, post ore mid makes there no differences.
But some people love the Tribulation so much, they have to connect it to the Rapture. Call them "Tribulation-obsessed". But it you are looking for trouble, trouble will find you.
This should clear the issue up for ya:
Not clear at all, but your top list adds contradictions to written Bible Scripture. What you have failed to account for is that Lord Jesus and Apostle Paul and Peter revealed the only time Jesus returns is "as a thief" on the "day of the Lord" which God's Word shows is the last day of this present world.
That timing of the last day also aligns with what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16 that the 'asleep' saints MUST be RESURRECTED first, which Jesus also showed the resurrection happens on the LAST DAY per John 6:40. Jesus in His Olivet discourse used the idea of His future coming "as a thief", and that also is the day Apostle Paul said when there will be a "sudden destruction" upon the wicked on that "day of the Lord" that he said will come "as a thief in the night" (1 Thess.5). Apostle Peter showed the same thing in 2 Peter 3:10 with God's consuming fire burning man's works off this earth on that "day of the Lord", which means it MUST be the LAST DAY of this world.
So really, all you've done with your above lists is to skip the main SIGNS of the end of this world regarding the order of Christ's future coming that HE... gave, like Matt.24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27, and Rev.16:15, and that His Apostles gave with His only coming on the "day of the Lord" per Paul and Peter, and even per Zechariah 14. This is also why Zechariah 9:9-10 only points to TWO comings by Jesus Christ, His 1st coming to die on the cross, and His 2nd coming on the last day of this world to battle His enemies on earth with His army, and take reign over all nations on earth, with His faithful elect.
Are you not familiar with the warning Jesus gave us that originated from Isaiah 54 about falling to worship the wrong Christ, and not being found by Jesus as a symbolic "chaste virgin"? Did you even know that there is another Christ that comes first, and that he will be false, as per Lord Jesus' warning? In 2 Corinthians 11 Apostle Paul called that false one the "another Jesus". Have you not read that?
Therefore, if you are NOT 'watching' the SIGNS that Lord Jesus gave us (His Church) leading up to His future return, then how will you know about the false-Christ that comes first? How will know to recognize that false-Christ? do you think that false-Christ is going to tell you he is a fake? Haven't you read Apostle Paul's warning about that false-Christ that must come first, and how he will work signs and wonders, and exalt himself as GOD, and over all that is even called GOD, or that is worshiped? (2 Thess.2).
In Matthew 24:23-26 Lord Jesus is warning us about that same fake-Christ that comes first. The KJV translators made the Matt.24:24 verse about "false Christs" as plural when the context of the Matt.24:23 & 26 verse are actually singular, about a singular false-Christ that will work those signs and wonders that IF it were possible, would deceive even the very elect.
Then in Christ's Book of Revelation, Apostle John was giving this same type of warning of a coming false-Christ with Rev.13:11 forward about the "another beast" that work those signs and miracles to deceive the whole world with.
Luke 23:27-30
27 And there followed Him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented Him.
28 But Jesus turning unto them said, "Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for Me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.
29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, "Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.
30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, 'Fall on us'; and to the hills, 'Cover us'."
KJV
Jesus said the above in red to those Jewish women that cried for Him on His way to be crucified. That "Blessed are the barren..." quote is from Isaiah 54. It is a metaphor about the status of betrothed virgin who stays barren waiting for her Husband vs. the married wife who does not remain "a chaste virgin" waiting on their True Husband to come, and is found "with child" (spiritually fallen to another, the fake-Christ who comes first.) So yeah, even Apostle Paul was using that "Blessed are the barren..." idea in 2 Corinthians 11 when he said he wanted to present us to Christ as "a chaste virgin", and that he 'espoused' us to One Husband (Jesus Christ).
So, you've never read Apostle Paul's warning about that "another Jesus", that comes first?
2 Cor 11:1-4
11 Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me.
2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one Husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
KJV
I just think it is foolish to separate the saints from before the Tribulation and sometime during the Tribulation. So my opinion is there is no pre-tribulation resurrection/rapture
Yes, but relying on what God's Word actually says as written is how the dividing line will be between those who will be deceived vs. those who will remain faithful waiting on Jesus to come.
Jesus warned us about the leaven doctrines of men in Matthew 16. That's a good analogy, because leavened bread has millions of tiny air bubbles in it when it rises, while unleavened bread doesn't. With leavened bread it only 'looks'... like you've got more bread (i.e., God's Truth).
So a thief is SOOOO obvious, every eye will see? Mkay.
Revelation 1:7
King James Version
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
I think you better read the chart again that makes it BEYOND clear the Rapture (Harpazo) and Jesus' second coming are two separate events.
I'm certain it is not me that needs to get back to their Bible and study it all, instead of just looking for pieces that 'seem' to support a false pre-trib rapture theory that crept into the Church in 1830's Great Britain.
Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV
I have already covered the above Scripture by Lord Jesus in previous posts in this thread, but you apparently bypassed them.
It is impossible for the above Words by Lord Jesus Christ to mean a false pre-tribulational rapture. It means just the opposite of a pre-trib rapture. This Matt.24 version is about the asleep saints which Paul said Jesus will bring with Him when He comes, and that they MUST be resurrected first. And per John 6:40, Jesus said He will raise up those on the LAST DAY, meaning the last day of this world pointing to that being when He comes to gather His faithful Church.
The Mark 13:24-27 version of the above is about the saints still alive on earth when Jesus comes, their being "caught up" to Him, which aligns with what Paul taught in 1 Thess.4:17 about that same day the asleep saints are resurrected.
There is no 'resurrection' of the asleep saints written that happens PRIOR to the coming "great tribulation". That is a man-made doctrine used in attempting to support a false pre-trib rapture. As a matter of fact, the John 5:28-29 Scripture by Jesus shows that both the "resurrection of life" and the "resurrection of damnation" occur on the same last day of this world when Jesus returns. I don't find that Scripture reference in your list.
Furthermore, you list Scripture that includes the Matt.24:29-31 event of Christ's Own Words that His future coming is AFTER... the tribulation, yet you instead suggest a false pre-trib rapture??? Who are you trying to fool? Certainly not me, as I well know how to read The Scriptures.