Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.

Exodus 32:332-33-Moses said, “Forgive them or else BLOT ME OUT OF YOUR BOOK.” Moses believed he could be lost; or are you going to say that Moses was never saved?

Revelation 3:5- Jesus said, “He who overcomes (sin) shall be clothed in white and I will NOT BLOT OUT HIS NAME FROM THE BOOK OF LIFE.” He was talking to the CHURCH , and he told them to repent. The reverse of that would have to be true— If you don’t repent, , I WILL blot out your name from the book of life.

1 Cor. 9:27- Paul said he was in a race ( life) for an imperishable “crown” (of life, heaven). Verse 25, Paul says he tries not to sin “ lest when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.( thereby losing the race and the crown). So far we have MOSES and PAUL and GOD testifying that Saved people can be lost spiritually.

1 Tim. 1:18- having FAITH and a good conscience, who some have rejected having shipwrecked their faith.

1 Cor. 10:12- “Therefore let him who thinks he stands (strong in the faith) take heed lest he FALL. Fall from where? If they are not saved they are already lost, so where did they FALL FROM and where did they FALL TO?!?! PLEASE Answer.

-2 John 8-9-“Look to yourselves THAT WE DO NOT LOSE the things we worked for ( these are NOT UNBELIEVERS), but that we may receive a full reward….Whoever does NOT ABIDE in the doctrine of Christ HAS NOT GOD.” They have to be “IN” the doctrine of Christ in order to “ABIDE” in it.

Roman’s 11:22-“ Toward you goodness, IF you continue in His goodness, OTHERWISE, YOU ALSO WILL BE CUT OFF.” They were SAVED because they were IN GOD’s GOODNESS. You can’t CONTINUE in something if you are not already in it in the first place. But he tells them if they don’t CONTINUE in His goodness, HE WILL CUT THEM OFF. This harmonizes with Revelation 3:10- remain FAITHFUL to the end and He will give you a crown of life. It’s conditional upon FAITHFULNESS.

Chron. 28:9- David said to Solomon,”If you forsake Him(God), hHe will cast you off forever!” Was Solomon NOT saved? No! Solomon was God’s handpicked King of the Jewish people. Of course he was saved and so was David. Here we have another testimony from King David.

Rev. 2:4- Jesus speaking to the CHURCH (saved people), “Repent! Or I will remove your lamp stand.”

Hebrews 2:1- “Give heed to the things we have heard, lest we DRIFT AWAY. Paul says “WE” placing himself in the group he is speaking to. Was Paul saved or are you going to say he was never saved? Or do you think he was saved but the people he was talking to were not . Then why put himself in that group of unsaved people? He placed himself as one of the ones who could DRIFT AWAY.

Hebrews 6:4-6- “For it is impossible for those who were once ENLIGHTENED ( by the gospel), and HAVE TASTED THE HEAVENLY GIFT ( Of salvation) aThey have been saved. “AND HAVE BEEN PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, AND HAVE TASTED THE GOOD WORD OF GOD, if they FALL AWAY to RENEW THEM AGAIN to repentance.”

Hebrews 10:35- Therefore do not CAST AWAY your confidence ( of salvation), which has great reward. For you need to ENDURE, so that AFTER YOU HAVE DONE THE WILL OF GOD, you may receive the promise (of heaven). Read the preceding verses-32-34. These were Christian’s who had suffered persecution because (verse34), because “they knew they had a better and enduring possession for yourselves in heaven

Hebrews 12:15 “Lest anyone FALL SHORT of the grace of God.” Read who these people are in verse 1.

Galations 5:4- “YOU ARE FALLEN FROM GRACE.” Please tell me if God WANTED TO WARN US that we could fall from grace and be lost, how could he have said it any better?

2 Peter 3:17- you, BELOVED ( Christian), BEWARE, lest you FALL FROM YOUR OWN STEADFASTNESS—did you get that? These people had been STEADFAST. (Definition: loyal, faithful, devoted firm, unwavering.) being LED AWAY from what? With the error of the wicked.” (You) Grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Wouldn’t you have to be IN GRACE before you could GROW IN GRACE?

By Faith ( Forever Able In The Heavens) God given to us to respond to it in thanksgiving and praise for me at least, this I see. Wow
Amazing grace given not of works, (self works) Of God's done works of Son for God's music to get given us, free of charge forever, as religion does the opposite, at least that be my experience, along with people in general, which in past I have been guilty of using this grace for my own advantage also. Seeing differently now, thanking God for God's love and mercy of Son for us all, I see Hebrews 4 to rest in trust to God's done work of Son for me and all others also
Amazing grace given to believe it or not
Believe willingly, receive, and see as the new you has begun in you too, by God for us to be new. Amazing grace this is y'all, so stand therefore stand in trust to God who did it for us to appreciate and not take for granted and use it for any self gain, thanks

What makes no sense from what the "salvation can be lost" crowd has been saying is that they seem to think that seeking salvation through faith, one is then trapped. Where it's true that many a fella who joined the military felt trapped once they saw what it's like to have to live by discipline, that is not at all comparable to eternal salvation. I have NEVER met a true believer who said that he felt trapped and wanted out. Not ONE of the "salvation can be lost" gang has stated that they have ever met anyone who lost their salvation.

If we didn't have free will, then the Bible is a huge lie:

Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that [were] on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

If mankind in general had no free will, then this and many, many other verses make absolutely no sense whatsoever.

MM

Part II (continuation)

The lampstand (candlestick) represented the corporate churches. It does not pertain to an individual's salvation.

[Rev 1:20 KJV] 20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.



If one is among the elect and saved, it is solely through Christ that they are brought to glory, and such salvation cannot be forfeited.

[Heb 2:10, 13 KJV]
10 For it became him, for whom [are] all things, and by whom [are] all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. ...
13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.



You didn't read far enough. Paul explains in 6:9 that those truly saved cannot fall away:

[Heb 6:9 KJV] 9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.



Hebrews 10:35-36 speaks to the virtue of patience (endurance) rather than the preservation of salvation. Patience itself carries its own reward.
The phrase "ye have" in 10:34 indicates that it was already in their spiritual possession. Paul's message was to encourage them to maintain patience.

[Heb 10:34 KJV] 34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.



Individuals who are saved do not instantly comprehend salvation through God's grace. Rather, they, as everyone should, must study scripture to recognize God's grace, understand its meaning, and mature in that knowledge. However, the chosen ones will invariably attain an understanding and trust in it; those not chosen will never come to that understanding nor truly believe in it.



No, that is not what God was saying. Read on to v 5:10.

[Gal 5:10 KJV]
10 I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.



Receiving grace and growing in grace are complementary concepts. Receiving grace is a spiritual gift from God, while growing in grace is an intellectual journey that unfolds through studying the Bible. Without receiving grace on the spiritual level, one cannot grasp or embrace it intellectually. On the other hand, those who have received grace spiritually will develop an ever-increasing intellectual appreciation and belief in it of it over time, the others, not.[/QUOT

It’s PEOPLE who make up a church—not a building. God says -TO THE PEOPLE IN THAT CHURCH—REMEMBER FROM WHERE YOU HAVE “FALLEN”. He tells THE PEOPLE to repent —a building cannot repent-OR He would remove their lamp stand. If He did that what would that mean?? It means that they would no longer be God’s church—God’s people. He tells them that they must “overcome” (sin) if they want to go to Paradise and eat from the tree of Life. Then in verse 10 God says they MUST be faithful if they want a crown of life. I find it interesting that God says they HAVE FALLEN! Please tell me where they fell from. I know, but you don’t seem to know. And where did they FALL to? If they can’t FALL from Grace as you believe, then what was God talking about? How could they have “FALLEN”? So you see it DOES PERTAIN TO AN INDIVIDUALS SITUATION.

Hebrew 6:9 does not say anything about the impossibility of losing their salvation. Yes, Hebrews 10:34 is talking about the ones who are faithful to God. Undoubtedly, you think the ones who are unfaithful to God are the SAME ONES who are UN faithful to him. You must fail to see that these are not the same people in verses verse 34 as the ones in verses 4-6. We are talking about 2 different groups of people. The ones in verses 4-6 are unfaithful, living in sin. The ones in verse 34 are the “FAITHFUL” servants of God.

You did not deal at all with what Paul says in Galations 5:4. I mean it’s plain—we can read it. How can you say it’s NOT what God is saying, when that is EXACTLY what God says. Besides, you have NOT explained what verse 4 is saying if it’s NOT what God says!!

I believe You are trying so hard to “ deny” God’s very plain words, and to “explain away” God’s message because it does not fit with the man-made doctrine of Calvinism. By refusing God’s word, you seem to love and honor John Calvin more instead of Jesus who is your Savior and died for you. God is seeking HONEST hearts to follow Him.

Maybe >This< will be a blessing.
Have a good day!
🍵🙂👍

"I believe You are trying so hard to “ deny” God’s very plain words, and to “explain away” God’s message because it does not fit with the man-made doctrine of Calvinism. By refusing God’s word, you seem to love and honor John Calvin more instead of Jesus who is your Savior and died for you. God is seeking HONEST hearts to follow Him."

And I believe that you do not follow the rules the Bible itself sets-forth and demands be followed for its own interpretation.
Only by adhering to those rules through the Holy Spirit, can you discover its true doctrines. Thus, you mistakenly attribute the responsibility for a person's salvation to their deeds and choices instead of relying solely upon Christ as Savior. Unless you become able to do so through God's grace, the true gospel will remain closed to you.

A (biblical) corporate church could lose its status as a church favored by God due to the doctrines it as a church advocated. However, this did not affect the salvation status of all of its individual members, otherwise, salvation would be by church and not by Christ.

At this point, I'm not going to continue to invest further time and effort to refute and correct the numerous errors of your latest post.

I assume, you are talking to me, I am not a Calvinist, nor a member of any earth Church.
I believe God personally over anyone else, includes myself, the first birth, thanks for the admonishment if it is you talking about me and judging me, hoping you d o believe God also, in his done work of Son for us all.
I glory in this, thank you, and hope the best for you, as I hope you do that for me too and everyone else too
Bless you

No, sorry, it was to Beckworth not you

At what point it is lost is really irrelevant.[/QUOTE}
Ah begs to diffa.

It is most relevant. At what point does Jesus fail, and the devil is able to pluck some back from His hand? At what point is God unable to keep His promise?

And don't forget the second part of that question...can salvation, once it is lost, ever be regained?

Congrats! I'm not either. But neither am I into making man's finite, fallible, carnal reasoning powers the final authority for understanding scripture. You reach your fallacious conclusion because you don't understand the Abrahamic Covenant's Inclusive Promise for spiritual seed, which involves Israel and the Gentile nations. Understanding the four seeds of the Covenant is actually crucial to understanding soteriorology and eschatology.

So eternal life is not eternal life.

Thats good to know.

Gods promise that we will never die is not true

Again, Good to know

Gods promise that we will never hunger or thirst is not true

Again, good to know

Gods promise he WILl raise us on the last day is not true

His promise that we are sealed with the spirit UNTIL the day of redemption is not true

Its good to know All these things and other promised are not true, It would be so sad to have faith in God to keep his promises, only to later find out that non of those things are really true, and we will end up in hell anyway.

I assume you got some pleasure out of telling us what you think and surmise. But if you won't answer questions put to you it's not a discussion or a dialogue. It's just you bragging.

Oh, I beg to differ! I have witnessed probably 50-100 people in my lifetime who have lost their salvation.

Just like the parable of the sower says. The seed of the gospel converts people, they are faithful for awhile, they take root and grow ( now don’t tell me they were never saved in the first place) but some are overcome by worldliness ( cares of the world) and they quit the Lord. Some are very shallow and they have no root so their faith withers and dies, perhaps because of ridicule or persecution. Our congregations practice “withdrawal” just as the scriptures say to do.

What questions didn't I answer about Saint Simon who lost his salvation?

Thus, you mistakenly attribute the responsibility for a person's salvation to their deeds and choices instead of relying solely upon Christ as Savior.

A (biblical) corporate church could lose its status as a church favored by God due to the doctrines it as a church advocated. However, this did not affect the salvation status of all of its individual members, otherwise, salvation would be by church and not by Christ.

So, do you believe that only the original autographs were worthy of believing since you claim the translations since those and copies are all in error?

How do you know any one of them lost their salvation? Did the Lord reveal that to you,
because only Deity say for sure, so how did YOU know what you THINNK that you know?

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Being brought into one body by the all sufficient Blood of Christ, yes, but the Church is not the replacement of Israel on this earth. That is what I was saying in relation to what it sounded like you were positing.

MM