Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.

Have you read Hebrews 6:4-6?
“For it is IMPOSSIBLE, for those who were once ENLIGHTENED, and have TASTED THE HEAVENLY GIFT, and have become PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT and have TASTED THE GOOD WORD OF GOD , and the powers of the age to come, if THEY FALL AWAY, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God and put Him to an open shame.”

1) these are Christian’s who the Holy Spirit, who is writing this, proves by saying these People have been enlightened ( by the word of God); they have tasted the heavenly gift of salvation and the good word of God—they know some things about the Bible; AND they have been Partakers of God’s Holy Spirit. Now, are you going to try to tell us these people were never saved? We have DIVINE TESTIMONY that they were as saved as any Christian ever has been.

BUT—2) they FELL AWAY. What?? I thought a saved person could not do that! They aren’t suppose to be able to do that, because God never lost anybody, and once God gets you you can’t EVER get away even if you deny him, reject Him, and I guess spit in His face! No way you are going to get away from Him even if you want to.

3) some people, who FALL AWAY, never repent. They NEVER come back, …….but it’s ok, because I know a doctrine that says they are going to be saved ANYWAy! In fact, according to THAT doctrine, people can crucify Jesus all over again and spit on Him, place a crown of thorns on Him and mock him, publicly
shame Him, all over again and they will still go to heaven and be rewarded just like the faithful Christians who have sacrificed for Him, loved Him, and dedicated their lives to Him. God makes no difference between the two—giving each of them the same reward—heaven. God is JUST isn’t He? That is God’s justice?

I hope you can see I am trying to demonstrate how evil this false doctrine is. It is a slap in Jesus’s face to say Christians can sin, live an ungodly life, reject Christ and still be saved. God does not teach any such thing!! God says a Saved person CAN fall away and when they do, they are putting Christ through the shame and suffering that he went through on the cross ALL OVER AGAIN! It’s NOT ok. God is JUST. He is FAIR. It would never be considered “fair” if God gave the same reward to people rebelling against Him as He does to the Ones who LOVE Him and live faithful lives. How is that FAIR? How is that RIGHT?

Please come out of this doctrine of Satan. He is the one luring you into a sense of “false security”. And how like the devil to tell you just what you want to hear—“you can sin and be saved anyway!” You can have your cake and eat it, too. Beware of a doctrine that doesn’t cost you anything!! That is not the doctrine of Christ.
2 John 8-9-“Whoever transgresses and does NOT abide in the doctrine of Christ does NOT have God. ……If someone comes to you and does not bring THIS DOCTRINE ( the doctrine of Christ), do not greet him, nor invite him into your house, for he who greets him SHARES IN HIS EVIL DEEDS.”

I'm saying partaking of the Holy Spirit doesn't mean indwelling of the Spirit. Indwelling of the Spirit makes one a partaker of the divine nature. That is different than partaking in an event that the Spirit is manifested. For example, anyone who was there the day of Pentecost would have partaken in what the Spirit did that day. They may have been among those who thought the disciples were drunk. They would have heard the disciples speaking in their language. They would have heard a Spirit led sermon. Yet, only 3,000 were saved. So if you weren't one of those 3,000, you partook in the operation of the Spirit, but were not indwelt by Him. You did not become a partaker of the divine nature. They never belonged to Christ.

When the book of Hebrews was written, there were many still living who would have experienced Jesus in life. No doubt they were taught, fed, and healed by Him. Jesus Himself said that the present generation would experience the demise of Jerusalem. Since Jesus operated in the power of the Spirit, as did the disciples, the manifestation of power by the Spirit was well-known and experienced by them. This doesn't mean they were saved.

Many in our time associate themselves with the church for a variety of reasons who are not truly saved. They know the pastor, the people, the liturgy, and the hymnal. Still many do not know God. It's interesting that in Luke 16 where Jesus tells the story of the rich man and Lazarus, the rich man was familiar with father Abraham, but not Father God. Unfortunately, there are many today in the same estate.

That's not what it means.

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

Certainly there are many warnings about partaking of sin once one is born again.

This section talks about how it is impossible to be born again after being born again. It is impossible to renew such a person in the manner in which they were brought into salvation. Now that they are a child of God they will face correction, punishment, or even excommunication with the intent to produce godly sorrow so that they might confess their sins and turn from their ways.

Furthermore, no man may crucify the Lord for themselves. It is impossible. And no man may bring shame upon the Lord. That is also impossible. The believer caught in sin, if he repents, is not AGAIN born of the spirit. But, because he is of the House of God, the son will face the correction that God brings him; first through his own conscience, then through the saints, and lastly through His own hand. It is always best to heed the word of correction spoken by the Spirit to the spirit of man, and then by the elders, than to have the Lord intervene directly.

And lastly, about salvation: there is more than just "salvation to go to heaven when you die". The evangelicals made the church addicted to this version of salvation. There is also "salvation from the wickedness of the world". This is a simple matter: if you get caught up in sin after you have been born again you are no longer saved from the wickedness of the world.

You have nothing in the scriptures that says the “partaking of the Holy Spirit does not mean in dwelling of the Holy Spirit.” How do you know that? Does God say that ? No. That is just your opinion; your idea and a way to “get around “ a fact that would destroy your man made doctrine. Just about everything you said in that first paragraph is non Biblical. You have given no scripture that proves this —nor can you. God tells us to “prove all things” in 1 Thess. 5:21 So where is your proof?” Where is the scripture that even says there is a difference between “partaking of the Spirit” and “in dwelling of the spirit”? There is no difference. This is just a feeble attempt to justify a false, man made doctrine.

Hebrews 6 gives, not one, but 5 descriptions of these people who “FELL AWAY” and all of them are descriptions of someone who is a Christian. Besides, if they NEVER WERE Christian’s in the first place—where did they FALL FROM?? FELL AWAY FROM WHAT??? FELL AWAY from not being a Christian?? What did they FALL FROM?? Are you going to MAJE UP some more nonBiblical rhetoric for us?

Until you consider the ramifications of it. It would render other scriptures false if it means that Christians can fall away.

Really?? Hebrews 6:4-6 is “talking about it is impossible to be born again after being born again?????” I think I have reached Matthew 7:6. folks. Those who want the “truth” can clearly “see” the truth of God’s word. Those who don’t want to “see”, never will. They be blind leaders of the blind.

If Hebrews 6 means as you say, many verses of scripture cannot be true. In Romans 8, it says nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus. You are saying that that's not true. How can that be? But if my understanding is correct, the scriptures are unbroken and aligns

it does literally say it is not possible to be renewed again.

why not? why would that be here in Hebrews, a book warning Diaspora Jews not to go back to practicing temple worship?

and if you think this means you are.o longer saved if you fall, and you can never be saved again if you fall,
then you must surely also believe no one at all is saved - because all fall..

Grace shouldn’t be why people reject what the Bible actually teaches. i notice scripture like this repetetively in the Bible’s New Testament which is meant to be basic Christian doctrine is just totally rejected these days

“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:28-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It’s black and white but we can’t won’t it
this concept is repeated again and again on letters to the church from apostles

“God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”

To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile;

but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:6-11‬ ‭NIV‬‬

explained in detail but we won’t hear it

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Warned again but we won’t hear it

“Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction;

whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭6:7-9

Principle put forth simply and we won’t hear it

this time has come long

“For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭4:3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

And look what false doctrine does to his church when we turn away from the truth

“But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭2:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I would be careful of the grace eraser where the word grace causes us to reject what God has always been saying will save us and said if we believe him well
Be saved.

It would be pretty against Gods character to cause us to forget about what he said will save us and just say we’re saved

“Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.” Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.

Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.”
‭‭John‬ ‭14:21, 23-24‬ ‭NIV‬‬

Notice they hear his words first then he comes to them Roman’s eight like all scripture has context

“And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:28‬ ‭NIV‬‬

“This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:2-4‬ ‭

quoting a verse saying we’re saved by grace doesn’t then make this all false or untrue this stuff is all part of grace accepting it and then god changes us

How many Christians do
How many Christians do you know who sin, live ungodly lives, and reject Christ? What about that description suggests such a one is saved?
All of the description given in Hebrews that you posted are true, but only external for those who fall away. Many may have been taught, fed or healed by Jesus. They may have been present at Pentecost. But while they may have been present when the Spirit was active thereby becoming a partaker of the work of the Spirit, it never says that they were partakers of the divine nature. And while it does say they were enlightened, it doesn't say they were known of Christ or received eternal life. Both of these seem to be assumed on your part.

It has always seemed a very convenient doctrine to me to say of the Christian’s who return to sin, “ They never had truly saving faith anyway.” WASN'T it YOU, who said to me,
“ I have grave doubts that anyone here is of the caliber of deity, for even Satan himself can’t see into the hearts of men.”?

And yet, you claim to be able to “ see into the hearts of men” and determine that they were never saved!! Amazing!!

That is the point! When they fall into sin and reject Christ they are NOT saved when they are in that state. Who gives YOU the right to say they were NEVER SAVED IN THE Frst PLACE? Did God tell you that? Do you read those words inHebrews 6– ANYWHERE? Well, if God didn’t say so and Hebrews 6 does not say that, why do you presume to be able to read people’s hearts and make a judgement call about their spiritual condition? Do you think you know more than God does? Or the Holy Spirit does? Because what you are saying did not come from them. There is no way, YOU, as a mere man can know whether those people were really saved or not. You are putting yourself in the place of God.

Tell me what these people FELL FROM? It says they “FELL AWAY”. From what? Did they fall away from their unsaved state? If so, then where did they land? If they were never saved and FELL AWAY FROM THEIRV UNSAVED STATE THEN WHERE DID THEY FALL TO? Your position just gets more ridiculous at every turn.

Have you ever been separated from the love of God in Christ Jesus?

Once in Christ there is no way out

Nothing gives me the right.

That is the point! When they fall into sin and reject Christ they are NOT saved when they are in that state. Who gives YOU the right to say they were NEVER SAVED IN THE Frst PLACE? Did God tell you that? Do you read those words inHebrews 6– ANYWHERE? Well, if God didn’t say so and Hebrews 6 does not say that, why do you presume to be able to read people’s hearts and make a judgement call about their spiritual condition? Do you think you know more than God does? Or the Holy Spirit does? Because what you are saying did not come from them. There is no way, YOU, as a mere man can know whether those people were really saved or not. You are putting yourself in the place of God.

Tell me what these people FELL FROM? It says they “FELL AWAY”. From what? Did they fall away from their unsaved state? If so, then where did they land? If they were never saved and FELL AWAY FROM THEIRV UNSAVED STATE THEN WHERE DID THEY FALL TO? Your position just gets more ridiculous at every turn.

Something further you should consider: if any man be in Christ, he is a new creation...

Really?? Hebrews 6:4-6 is “talking about it is impossible to be born again after being born again?????” I think I have reached Matthew 7:6. folks. Those who want the “truth” can clearly “see” the truth of God’s word. Those who don’t want to “see”, never will. They be blind leaders of the blind.