Loss of salvation???

True, there are nearly as many warnings about false teachers, as there is actual teaching.

I can see you are a Messianic Jew who pushes a separation of expectations and teachings about salvation and God’s requirements between Jews vs. Gentiles. I think this is wholly unbiblical teaching. In fact, Paul was killed over this very issue in his insistence that there “is no difference between Jew and Greek, male and female”

God is no respecter of persons. There is no different set of rules for Jews than for Gentiles. The idea that Jesus’ teachings apply to some people based on their heritage and not toward others because of their lineage is contrary to NT teaching and the entire new covenant of grace, as such.

Paul speaks very plainly about this in his letter to the Galatians as well as his letter to the Romans. Abraham is the father of all who believe. The idea that Jews are still under Old Covenant regulations and that only Gentiles are not expected to keep feasts and other Old Covenant regulations is a false doctrine and exalts flesh over faith.

If you want to keep the feasts and festivals in the Jewish tradition as a believer in Christ, I see no issue with that. However, if you want to make distinctions between Jews and Gentiles and suggest God has different teachings and requirements for people based on their lineage, then that is entirely contrary to the teachings of the New Covenenant. Again, it was for this very reason that the Judiazers sought to kill Paul. Paul also makes it plain in Romans that both Jews and Gentiles are grafted into the same tree based on faith in Christ alone. There are no distinctions that separate one group from another. Gentiles are grafted in based on their faith and Jews are part of that tree or are cut off based on faith...not faith + adherence to feasts, festivals or dietary restrictions.

Finally, if you are going to imply in a comment to others that I am an antichrist, I would appreciate it if you just levied the charge at me directly and state your explaination for how my comments mirror what John is speaking against in his letter. However, I think the idea that the rejection of “once saved always saved” for Gentiles (or Jews, for that matter) is comparable to the actions and teachings of the antichrists John denounces in 1 John further reveals your lack of grasp the NT.

To clarify, I am not sure if you are aiming that comment at me, but it seems to be a very odd injection of that assertion on the heels of disagreeing with me and saying I need to “get my thinking straight with God.”

Again, I hope people on here can just use Scripture to explain why they believe what they believe and have a civil discussion on the issues. I dont know why people have to resort to anccuse anyone who disagrees with them as not “thinking straight” or being an antichrist. I’m more than happy to provide a host of Scriptures to show why I think the way I do. I assure you it is because of what I see Scripture clearly teaching. If you think otherwise, just post Scripture and explain why you think it teaches something else. There is no reason to start name-calling or accusing people of being antichrists unless you can show very clearly how what they are teaching lines up clearly with some admonition or rebuke in Scripture. Apart from that, I find those types of comments to reveal that someone is insecure in their understanding of the Bible and have to resort to name-calling to make their point.

You are not understanding my argument at all. I have not argued you said we "work for our salvation". You stated quite clearly, when speaking of what you believe salvation to be, "if we stop running, we don't get the prize" (post#501). I have said nothing regarding how one runs or stated how you see what constitutes running or how it is to be worked out.

There is no other way to translate (in context) what you said (above) except to say "if we stop running we don't get saved". You equated salvation as a prize instead of it being the gift it is. The statement also ignores the fact we can't run unless we are saved.

We do run for a prize but that prize is not salvation from death, it is the rewards of a good and faithful servant. You can be woefully last in that race but you will still be saved.

Please get on the same page and understand the actual argument before commenting again. Thankyou.

I think this question is asked in ignorance or lack of understanding of some terms abused by many good people.

for example:

1. Backsliding

A person who backslides doesn't happen overnight. It is a willfully constant in disobedience to the Holy Spirit and God's word that you can no longer be convicted by the sinful act you have become bound by. Backsliding is not a one-hit wonder, people; it is a condition. You are willfully sinning. Therefore, your salvation could be in question from the very beginning. We know fully well what we are doing. We are seeking the pleasures of the season.

If you love the Lord, you will obey him as he said, yet if we fall, we have Jesus, our advocate, meaning you are doing everything you should be doing, but because of the war going on in your body, you mess up. Still, you don't give in to it. You ask forgiveness and actively seek to repent. Those who are backsliding are not doing so. They need a touch from God to wake them up like the prodigal. When you fail, God, as we all have, do you wait a month or weeks to say, Lord, forgive, however,e me? NO. That shows you care about your walk with the Lord. Backsliden are no longer concerned; they are willfully sinning. They may have never been saved, but I don't know that.

My Gentile pastor who was a scholar and historian, would say you are taking the easy way out by diverting.

The Bible teaches that when Jesus came to earth, that he came to the Jews, and taught as a rabbi who had his own following
of disciples. He taught Jews as a Jew in that day would think.

If Jesus was teaching Jews anything different than as a rabbi? The Pharisees would have nailed him from the get go.

Ok, well first, if you can show scripturally where I am wrong, I’d be happy to consider it. Just saying im taking the “easy way out” doesnt progress the conversation if you cant show where I am interpreting something wrong.

Second, I agree that Jesus was speaking to Jews and that he was the Jewish Messiah. However, the NT makes it clear that all believing Gentiles are grafted into Israel and are thereby sons of Abraham and heirs according to the promise. There is no difference. God does not see Jew and Gentile when it comes to believing saints. They are all children of Abraham. To make such distinctions or to suggest that Jesus’ teachings are limited based on someone’s genealogy is a very myopic view of Scripture. In fact, John the Baptist scolded the Pharisees on this very issue when he said,
“You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bear fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not say to yourselves, “We have Abraham as our father,’ for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham.“
Again, there is no Jew or Greek in Christ. There are only children of the promise and heirs of God. There is not one set of standards for Jews (Christ + dietary laws, Jewish customs) and a different one for Gentiles (faith in Christ only).

In fact, Paul chastised Peter for acting like Gentiles around Gentiles and then observing Jewish customs around Jews. We read…

Paul goes on to warn the Galatians that if they continue to be deceived in this way, attempting to be perfected by the flesh rather than by hearing with faith, then they will have believed in vain. This is NOT only speaking to Gentiles. For, going on in chapter 3, Paul points to Abraham’s justification by hearing and faith and says that the promises to Abraham’s offspring refers to Christ, not Israel. Thus, now that faith in Christ has come, the law which stood as a guardian is gone and we are no one is under it any longer.

So, the idea that Paul is speaking only to Gentiles here is absolutely incorrect as he rebukes Peter, himself, for his hypocrisy. Moreover, nothing Paul teaches contradicts the teachings of Jesus. If you think otherwise, or that Scripture has different formulas for Jews than Gentiles as it relates to NT mandates for salvation or faithfulness, please post them and we can review them together.

I have already examined the context of that passage with you. I understand your argument. I think the context, as I have shown several times, cannot lend itself to being “heavenly rewards” not related to salvation.

Yet…once again…for others reading in…the verses immediately proceeding say,
”To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that i may share with them in its blessings.”

Immediately after his illustration about running the race in such a way as to win the prize he points to the disobedient Israelites as an example of those who were “disqualified.”

He says,
“ I cannot even fathom how someone could read such an illustration from Paul and think, “Oh, he’s just talking about not getting as big of a heavenly reward.” No, he’s talking about those who died in the desert and never entered the Promised Land due to their evil actions and unbelief. They are EXAMPLES to the Christian who is also called to run the race in such as way as to finish the journey and recieve the promises of God.

One last point I would make... The prize we receive from God for running the race faithfully is a “gift.” Believing and remaining faithful to the end is not something we earn due to our labors. It is a gift from God. The Israelites were not “earning” the Promised Land or the rewards therein due To not grumbling or being sexually immoral in the desert. Not grumbling and not being sexually immoral is the fruit of someone who is faithful and believes God and His promises as he is miraculously delivering them from slavery to their own land! Faith = Trust. If you dont trust God, you will grumble in the desert, complain the bread isn’t enough and question The words and guidance of Moses. Likewise, if you dont trust Christ, you will grumble and complain as time goes on that Christ’s broken body suddenly is no longer enough and begin to question and reject his commands and teaching. Our obedience to Christ is not “earning“ anything. It is the fruit of someone who loves him and believes. Thus the “prize” the Christian receives in running their race to the end is the gift of his promises to those who trusted him and received God’s mercy, grace and inheritance on the basis of their faithfulness to Jesus rather than their own efforts or labors.

I'll tell you what the problem is....

All believers on earth prior to Pentecost? Were not yet Christians.

What applied to the disciples prior to the church age? In the Gospels?
With the exception of a few prophetic utterances given by Jesus concerning what was to come?
Was according to the Torah and its teachings.



From the Torah teachings, the Jews knew of the Kingdom of God on earth. That is why his disciples asked about the kingdom to come.

What you are doing is attempting to tell me there is no difference between Jew and Gentile. But, what you are missing.
That factor only became reality once the Church age began. That is when we can say there is neither Jew nor Gentile IN CHRIST!

You need to stop.. learn more... and realize how things were at different times for the believers on earth.

So far, you are looking at the Gospels from a perspective that does not apply to the age for the walk of Jesus on earth.
You're confused. Good teaching would easily clarify it for you. Sad to say... too many gentile pastors really do not have a solid grasp on the realities I speak of. Though the best teacher I ever heard teach of the differences was Gentile, not Jewish. He simply understood dispensations..... which is a word being suppressed in the churches today design to confuse believers and keep them ineffectual in welcoming in God's blessings on the land.

Jesus taught Jews as the perfect rabbi! https://www.biblescholars.org/2013/05/study-shows-jesus-as-rabbi.html

That should give you enough to study.

Don't get discouraged in the face of their inability to see what you say.

Jesus, Paul, and others faced worse.

Fear not. They do not fail to understand because you do not know how to express yourself.

Religion will always resist Spirit led Christianity.
To a much more extreme, its what got Jesus crucified...

Jesus had no problem knowing how to say what was needed to be heard.

But, keep in mind. Some later on caught on and repented to God's glory.
Its called.. "suffering for righteousness sake."

grace and peace .............

This is a interesting thought, what do you base this on? I have never seen this taught in the many times I have heard the prodigal son story preached.

You believe you can lose the race but still be saved???

Here is the verse:

ERV
You know that in a race all the runners run, but only one runner gets the prize. So run like that. Run to win!

The context is win or lose, not do your best. There is no participation trophy in this race.
Remember according to the verse "only one" gets the prize. The rest lose.

In the context of the verse there is no try. It's win or lose.

Actually, they were “Christians” since they were “followers of Christ.” However, if you point is that they had not received the indwelling Spirit yet, then I agree. However, I dont know what this has to do with how Jesus’ teachings are applied to readers today.

I mean, you do realize, dont you, that the Gospels were written to the Church? Luke was written by a Gentile to a predominately Gentile audience. John was written to the Church that was being confronted with Gnostic heretical teachings. It would be pretty weird if these Gospels being written to Christians had a bunch of teachings from Jesus that didn’t apply to them but only to Jews.

I’m guessing you meant this to be one question, not two. So that is how I will answer it. Um, well, considering Jesus told his disciples to “make disciples of all nations by baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and teaching them everything I have commanded you…” So, by Jesus’ own words, EVERYTHING he taught and commanded to his disciples were to be taught to their disciples. Also, his teaching about WHY he was about to be betrayed, crucified and rise again is pretty relevant to the disciples prior to the church age as well as after.

Perhaps a better way to discuss this would be for you to tell us all what you think only applies to the disciples prior to the resurrection and only applies to Jews or perhaps has no application at all post the resurrection.

I have read this several times and I dont even know what these sentences are supposed to mean.

Well, I know the primary intent of this is to be insulting and dismiss my comments by suggesting I’m ignorant and uneducated, but I’ll move past that and just deal with the issue.
First, I am very familiar with the Biblical contexts and the importance of considering both he narrative context as well as the context of the author writing the books. I have done a great deal of study on the Ancient Near East and have 4 theological degrees and am working on a 5th. I am very familiar with both the lands, customs and contexts of the Biblical narratives, but also the contexts of the AUTHORS who wrote these Gospels PRIMARILY to instruct CHRISTIAN practices and doctrines in the 1st century CHURCH.

Again, if you’d like to explain to me all the teachings and instructions of Jesus that don’t apply to Christians and only apply to Jews, I’d be happy to have that conversation.

THIS. This is exactly where I knew this would go. I have had many theological discussions with people from your denomination and it always moves this direction. Gentiles just dont get it. But, since you found some Jewish ancestor somewhere aeons ago in your family tree, you have a sense of superiority over others and believe God has special plans, expectations and relationship with you that just doesnt apply to Gentiles. In fact, I had a Messianic Jewish rabbi once tell me that I shouldn’t be allowed to be a church leader as a Gentile and that every time I taught it was “an affront to God.”
So, yeah, I’m very familiar with your doctrine and have a pretty good grasp of ”the realities” you imagine.

Good grief, we are having an online theological discussion. Gimme a break with the martyr complex.

op: loss of [ God's True ] Salvation?:
Precious friends, NO "such thing!":

God's OPERATION On All New-born babes In Christ!
+ Updates: (of # 11) + (of #14)
+
God's Eternal Life Assurance
+
God's Eternal Life Insurance

Amen.

Your post#501

It is clear you are saying if we don't walk by faith till the end of the race we don't get the prize of salvation. You have equated salvation from death as a prize, there is no other way to interpret your statement.

Don't insult my intelligence please. It is either a reward (prize) or it is a gift. The two are very different things. The former depends on the recipient, the latter on the giver. This is why you need to re-evaluate your understanding of that passage because Paul makes it quite clear he is running for a prize not a gift, ergo, it cannot be salvation from death he is running for. We have been given life freely but how much of that life we actually work out as to be visible to others is dependent on how we run. If we have failed miserably in our run, we will not be getting more power in the eternal state for the word of God is real power. Our handling of the word in this life determines our ability to rule with Him in the next. For correct understanding here and now gives us power over life and death, a life content without fear of death. If one cannot master themself, they have no business being in charge of others.

You recognise they are not saved because they did not believe which, is what I have said continually, God does not save unbelievers.

One cannot even hope to start running the race unless one is saved to begin with. The Lord God does not take back His gift of life just because we fall over in the race, even if we don't get back up. He is faithful even when we are not because He cannot deny Himself. If it were not so? None of us could be saved. There are few who are willing to endure being "flayed alive and crucified", even in a figurative sense, in order to know Christ more. Most Christians will deny themselves only to a point which, is why only a few find the life abundant, the life that is lived in perfect contentment no matter what the circumstances. This goes beyond simply being alive.

They had not been baptized in the Spirit, so they were not new creatures in Christ which, is what makes a Christian.

You believe you won your salvation?

No, the race is still on. I don't make the rules, I just follow them.

So what do you think the singular prize that we are running for?

I didn’t equate it this way, Paul did. He is the one who said, “I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Now there is in store for me a crown of righteousness, but not for me only, but all who long for his appearing.” You make it sound like I’m coming up with my own illustrations here. We can disagree about what the illustration is referring to, but its not MY illustration.

Besides, why is it so wrong to consider Paul is arguing we should persist in faith to receive the prize of salvation, but not wrong to argue we should persist in faith in order to get more heavenly rewards?

If you are reading that statement as insulting then that’s on you. So, if I said to you, “Put your hand out and hold it there for one minute and I will put a billion dollars in your palm” did you “earn” the money? Did the ”reward” and the “Prize” I give you for obeying my instruction something you “earned?” Remaining faithful is not “earning” salvation. Again, you keep claiming you aren’t accusing me of arguing for “works based salvation“ and that I am making it up. And then you make statements like this that suggest that im obviously arguing for salvation not as a gift. Again…believing is not “earning” salvation or making salvation not a gift. Continuing to believe is not works…its the opposite of works!

I have no issue with the idea that you believe that someone who believes cannot later stop believing. We both agree that God does not save unbelievers. I just think the Bible teaches that someone who believes can stop believing. I think that is why the Bible speaks so much about “enduring” and “persisting” in the faith. If once a person believes they can no longer stop believing, then why would the writers of the Bible even need to speak of the importance of endurance, persistence or faithfulness? I guess your answer would be to gain more rewards….but i just dont understand how that is not also considered “works based favor.” I mean if my believing that someone has to persist in their faith is arguing for “earning” the “prize” of salvation…how is persisting in faith wont let you live forever, but will give you a lot more eternal rewards…not “earning” the “prize” of God’s favor?

My answer is that faith is not a work. Maintaining and growing in faith and the salvation and rewards that come from our faith is ALL grace. Whereas it seems you are saying that suggesting we need to maintain and grow in faith is “works” based salvation but maintaining and growing in faith for more heavenly rewards from God is not works based favor.

Yes. “The Lord said to Moses, whoever has sinned against me, I will BLOT him out of my book. Exodus 32:33.
“He who overcomes …I will not blot out his name from the book of life.” Rev. 3:5
“It is impossible for those who were once ENLIGHTENED, and have TASTED THE HEAVENLY GIFT, and have become PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, and have TASTED THE GOOD WORD OF GOD….if they FALL AWAY to renew them to repentance…” Hebrews 6:4-6
“The just shall live by faith; but if anyone DRAWS BACK, my soul has no pleasure in him. We are not of those who DRAW BACK to perdition.” Hebrews 10:38-39.
“We must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, LEST WE DRIFT AWAY.” Hebrews 2:1.
“Looking carefully lest anyone FALL SHORT of the grace of God.” Hebrews12:15.
“Look to yourselves that we do not LOSE those things we worked for but that we may receive a full reward. Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does NOT have God.” 2 John 8-9.
“Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone FALL according to the same example of disobedience.” Hebrews 4:11.
“If you continue in His goodness; otherwise you also will BE CUT OFF.” Roman’s 11:22.
“Therefore, let him who thinks he stands, take heed lest he FALL.” Hebrews 10:12
To the church at Ephesus…”Remember therefore, from where you are FALLEN; repent…or I will ..remove your lamp stand from its place.”” Rev. 2:1, “"…I will vomit you out of my mouth.” Rev. 3:16.
…. Just to name a few.