Loss of salvation???

[Chaps]

The Saviour is a person and salvation is the result of His working.

You get the freedom to choose to follow, you don't get the power to save yourself. If God has saved you, you are saved. He doesn't save unbelievers and He knows exactly who they are.

I'm beginning to think you don't think we are saved until the day of the Resurrection.

I think salvation works like this:

Imagine you’re lost in the mountains without food or water. You’re dead…the vultures are circling. Jesus comes and finds you and provides unlimited bread and drink and says he knows the way home. You are saved. You are following Jesus home. Suddenly you decide Jesus doesn’t know where he’s going and you get tired of his bread. You decide to abandon Jesus, even though he pleads with you not to, because you think you know a better path. Now you are lost.

So, yes, salvation does happen at a moment. But mostly, salvation is a person. You are saved because your relationship and connection with Jesus. If you decide to sever that connection, you are not saved. Just like Mary and Martha thought the resurrection was a day and were corrected by Jesus who said that HE is the resurrection. So too is salvation more than a moment, but a person. If you walk away from him you are lost.

The Bible teaches that salvation happens in a moment, but it also teaches that one must “endure to the end” to be saved. Even Paul says, “I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. NOW is in store for me a crown of righteousness…”. We have to finish and keep the faith. If you stop running, you dont get the prize. Paul is pretty clear on this, imo.

 

[sawdust]

I think salvation works like this:

Imagine you’re lost in the mountains without food or water. You’re dead…the vultures are circling. Jesus comes and finds you and provides unlimited bread and drink and says he knows the way home. You are saved. You are following Jesus home. Suddenly you decide Jesus doesn’t know where he’s going and you get tired of his bread. You decide to abandon Jesus, even though he pleads with you not to, because you think you know a better path. Now you are lost.

So, yes, salvation does happen at a moment. But mostly, salvation is a person. You are saved because your relationship and connection with Jesus. If you decide to sever that connection, you are not saved. Just like Mary and Martha thought the resurrection was a day and were corrected by Jesus who said that HE is the resurrection. So too is salvation more than a moment, but a person. If you walk away from him you are lost.

The Bible teaches that salvation happens in a moment, but it also teaches that one must “endure to the end” to be saved. Even Paul says, “I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. NOW is in store for me a crown of righteousness…”. We have to finish and keep the faith. If you stop running, you dont get the prize. Paul is pretty clear on this, imo.

As I have said before, salvation is not a prize. Prizes are rewards for winning effort. Christ is not on the outside feeding you bread and water as you walk through the desert. You keep confusing salvation from death, which cannot be lost as you cannot die again because your sin has been paid for (the wages of sin is death), with salvation from the corruption of this fallen world which is more commonly known as sanctification. Even unbelievers are not condemned on the basis of their sin but their response to Christ. (Jn.3:18) All sin has been dealt with on the Cross. You cannot earn your salvation but how you treat the word of God once you are saved, will determine the sort of prize you will get, if any. You don't earn being in the the Resurrection unto life, you do earn eg. the crown of life and the way God has decided you can earn rewards is very specific, by grace, through faith in the filling of the Spirit.

If you are saved, you have been born of God the Spirit (Jn.3:3). You were dead but now you are alive never to die again. You are placed into Christ and sealed with the Spirit. You cannot sever that connection because it's not your connection to sever and God is no-one's fool to save someone and make them His own only to be surprised and find out they really were an unbeliever at the end of the day.

As I said before, you think you're in charge of your salvation from death and therefore we have nothing to talk about. There is nothing you did to make yourself alive. God is not mocked. No-one will be made alive by Him only for Him to then turn around and have to change His mind and unmake what He did in the first place.

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

 

[Chaps]

As I have said before, salvation is not a prize. Prizes are rewards for winning effort. Christ is not on the outside feeding you bread and water as you walk through the desert. You keep confusing salvation from death, which cannot be lost as you cannot die again because your sin has been paid for (the wages of sin is death), with salvation from the corruption of this fallen world which is more commonly known as sanctification. Even unbelievers are not condemned on the basis of their sin but their response to Christ. (Jn.3:18) All sin has been dealt with on the Cross. You cannot earn your salvation but how you treat the word of God once you are saved, will determine the sort of prize you will get, if any. You don't earn being in the the Resurrection unto life, you do earn eg. the crown of life and the way God has decided you can earn rewards is very specific, by grace, through faith in the filling of the Spirit.

If you are saved, you have been born of God the Spirit (Jn.3:3). You were dead but now you are alive never to die again. You are placed into Christ and sealed with the Spirit. You cannot sever that connection because it's not your connection to sever and God is no-one's fool to save someone and make them His own only to be surprised and find out they really were an unbeliever at the end of the day.

As I said before, you think you're in charge of your salvation from death and therefore we have nothing to talk about. There is nothing you did to make yourself alive. God is not mocked. No-one will be made alive by Him only for Him to then turn around and have to change His mind and unmake what He did in the first place.

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

I’m going to break your comments down statement by statement so there is no confusion. I’m not sure how you can say I’m confusing salvation from death with salvation from corruption. I’m not sure how my previous statement confused these concepts as you just make the statements but dont point out specifically what I said that seemed confused or wrong and why.

All sin

has been dealt with on the Cross.

What exactly do you mean by this? I doubt you mean that the sins of the whole world have been dealt with. So you need to quantify what you mean by “all sin.” Sin of the whole world such that all people are saved? I dont think you mean this. Yet Im sure we’d both agree that Christs blood was sufficient for the sin of the entire world. So if you don’t mean “all sin“ as in every sin, you must mean all sin of the believer. Correct? If this is what you mean, then I agree. All sin of the believer is covered by the blood of Jesus. However, if you mean “all sin” of the unbeliever who once believed, then I disagree.

The way I see it, this isn’t so much about timelines as it is proximity. There are two rooms. One for believers and one for unbelievers. The room of unbelievers is filled with sin, death and darkness. The room of believers is filled with life, righteousness, mercy and love. I think there are four scenarios that are argued as possible:

1. Jesus covers “all sin” means the room of unbelievers and believers are both flooded with life, light and salvation. Thus, all people are saved regardless of belief (I think we both reject universalism).

2. Jesus covers “all sin” means that once you leave the room of unbelievers and enter the room of belief, you not only are saved and have life…but the door locks behind you and you are unable to leave and turn back to disbelief. (It seems we both reject this concept, correct me if I’m wrong).

3. Jesus covers “all sin” means that once you leave the room of unbelievers and enter the room of belief, you are saved and have life no matter what you do from that point onward. If you leave the room of belief and walk back into the room of death and darkness, you’re still saved even though you renounce Jesus and mock the blood that bought you. It seems you think that the warnings of scripture simply mean you may suffer physically, but your belief, actions and proximity to Jesus no longer have any bearing on your status as a “saved person” (This seems to be your position).

4. Jesus covers “all sin” means that once you leave the room of unbelievers and enter the room of belief, all your sin, past present and future are covered. Just as the light of the room covers you, so all your sins are covered. However, if you leave the room and walk away from the light, back to the room of darkness, you to reject God’s light and life. God does not lock the door behind you so you cannot leave His light, but he also doesn’t send his light and life with you into the room of unbelief. God does not save the faithless and unbelieving.

In sum, the issue here isn’t that I dont believe God covers ”all sin.” It’s that I don’t believe that God saves the unbelieving. You make it sound as if I am somehow trying to cheapen God’s grace or limit His love by suggesting he doesn’t cover “all sin.” This is not true. God covers all the sins of those who trust in him and in the Savior, Jesus Christ. However, I do not believe God saves the unbelieving. He doesn’t do it for the unfaithful world (option 1) just as he doesn’t do it for the person who believed for a short time but then had the word plucked from their hearts, were choked out by the weeds of the world or were burnt up by pressure and persecution (in the terms of Jesus’ parable of the seeds).

I was going to respond to more…but I’ve written too much already..

 

[Lamar]

That passage has nothing to do with eternal salvation.

Yes, this passage is most certainly speaking of salvation and its loss. God paid the debt, do not claim that He is restrained. He is sovereign and cannot be mocked.

Colossians 2:14
having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross.

 

[sawdust]

I’m going to break your comments down statement by statement so there is no confusion. I’m not sure how you can say I’m confusing salvation from death with salvation from corruption. I’m not sure how my previous statement confused these concepts as you just make the statements but dont point out specifically what I said that seemed confused or wrong and why.

Let's start here. You believing (in Christ) did not save you. God's determination to save believers is what saved you (Jn.3:16). It is a gift. We were dead in our sin, we had no spiritual life and as such, were unable to relate to God who is Spirit. We were born utterly apart and oblivious to Him. It was God who determined to make us spiritually alive (born from above). We had no say in that. You don't earn gifts but you constantly raise verses that deal with our walk to try and show we can lose our salvation from death like Paul talking about "finishing the race" It is this salvation from death that Christ died for. The wages of sin is death. He died so we could be alive. We had no legal, moral or spiritual standing to ask God for life. There is little point speaking of holiness (sanctification) without first being made alive. Salvation from death is an instant event and it is this salvation that the doctrine of eternal security is referring to as something that can never be lost. Once spiritually alive, always spiritually alive (Jn.11:26), God knows who He is saving (Matt.7:23) Salvation from the corruption and decay of death (sanctification) is an ongoing process that will not be complete until the day of Resurrection. This can be done well or poorly. One's walk can either produce gold, silver and precious gems or wood, hay and stubble. The former will reap the rewards as noted in the letters to the Churches in revelation and other places but those who produce the latter end up with no crowns but still get a Resurrection body, they are still saved from death.

1Cor.3:11-15
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

There are those who say this only applies to teachers of the word but even if that is so, the passage doubles down on how secure our salvation is because teachers are held to a stricter evaluation and if they get it completely wrong and are still saved, how much more for us whose evaluation is more lenient.

Until such time as you comprehend we are talking about two different and distinct phases of salvation when discussing the doctrine of eternal security, we will only keep going round in circles.

Phase 1 - salvation from death, a result of the Gospel (Cross event - death and resurrection of Jesus Christ) - God's doing and therefore utterly secure and cannot be lost. Occurs instantly at the moment one finds themself believing the Gospel.
Phase 2 - salvation from the corruption and decay of one's sin, the world and the devil. Known as sanctification. A strict way of walking laid down by God as the only way to sanctification. ie. By grace, through faith in the filling of the Spirit. - requires our co-operation and therefore has an element of potential success and/or failure. We can fail to mature and lose the complete contentment that Paul talks about in Phil.4:11. This is something that must be learned, it is not a gift given from God's sole determining, we have a role in this. Not all believers will learn how to be truly content in all things and so will not be free of corruption.
Phase 3 - eternal salvation - from the Day of resurrection and onward. Most of which is a mystery but we know we will receive a body like His and we will be forever with the Lord.

All sin means all sin. Every sin that has been committed beginning with Adam's to the last person ever born, is forgiven. That forgiveness is in Christ. If you want to know (experience) that forgiveness and the salvation it brings, there is only one place to be, in Christ. Anyone not found in Christ will never know what it is like to be saved but it is due to their negative attitude to Christ (Jn.3:18), not because God is holding their sin against them. All sin has been dealt with, believer and unbeliever alike.

John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

 

[sawdust]

Yes, this passage is most certainly speaking of salvation and its loss. God paid the debt, do not claim that He is restrained. He is sovereign and cannot be mocked.

Colossians 2:14
having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross.

No, I applied your reasoning and the verse regarding making the debtor pay is just a generalization and there are always exceptions.

All language (written or verbal) is expressed in the general. As much as 95% is conveyed in a rather broad sense, these verses are typical. They are not wrong but they are not all-encompassing or without exception and this is the basis of your error.

Our debt is still cancelled and you failed to see the context is about judgement, not salvation. Those who refuse God's grace will know the "full weight of the law" (so to speak). The believer will also know what it is like to be judge by God (2Cor.5:10). No-one escapes God's judgement, believer and unbeliever alike, but how that judgement manifests itself depends on other factors like ones attitude to Christ.

 

[Chaps]

Let's start here. You believing (in Christ) did not save you. God's determination to save believers is what saved you (Jn.3:16). It is a gift. We were dead in our sin, we had no spiritual life and as such, were unable to relate to God who is Spirit. We were born utterly apart and oblivious to Him. It was God who determined to make us spiritually alive (born from above). We had no say in that. You don't earn gifts but you constantly raise verses that deal with our walk to try and show we can lose our salvation from death like Paul talking about "finishing the race" It is this salvation from death that Christ died for. The wages of sin is death. He died so we could be alive. We had no legal, moral or spiritual standing to ask God for life. There is little point speaking of holiness (sanctification) without first being made alive. Salvation from death is an instant event and it is this salvation that the doctrine of eternal security is referring to as something that can never be lost. Once spiritually alive, always spiritually alive (Jn.11:26), God knows who He is saving (Matt.7:23) Salvation from the corruption and decay of death (sanctification) is an ongoing process that will not be complete until the day of Resurrection. This can be done well or poorly. One's walk can either produce gold, silver and precious gems or wood, hay and stubble. The former will reap the rewards as noted in the letters to the Churches in revelation and other places but those who produce the latter end up with no crowns but still get a Resurrection body, they are still saved from death.

1Cor.3:11-15
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

There are those who say this only applies to teachers of the word but even if that is so, the passage doubles down on how secure our salvation is because teachers are held to a stricter evaluation and if they get it completely wrong and are still saved, how much more for us whose evaluation is more lenient.

Until such time as you comprehend we are talking about two different and distinct phases of salvation when discussing the doctrine of eternal security, we will only keep going round in circles.

Phase 1 - salvation from death, a result of the Gospel (Cross event - death and resurrection of Jesus Christ) - God's doing and therefore utterly secure and cannot be lost. Occurs instantly at the moment one finds themself believing the Gospel.
Phase 2 - salvation from the corruption and decay of one's sin, the world and the devil. Known as sanctification. A strict way of walking laid down by God as the only way to sanctification. ie. By grace, through faith in the filling of the Spirit. - requires our co-operation and therefore has an element of potential success and/or failure. We can fail to mature and lose the complete contentment that Paul talks about in Phil.4:11. This is something that must be learned, it is not a gift given from God's sole determining, we have a role in this. Not all believers will learn how to be truly content in all things and so will not be free of corruption.
Phase 3 - eternal salvation - from the Day of resurrection and onward. Most of which is a mystery but we know we will receive a body like His and we will be forever with the Lord.

All sin means all sin. Every sin that has been committed beginning with Adam's to the last person ever born, is forgiven. That forgiveness is in Christ. If you want to know (experience) that forgiveness and the salvation it brings, there is only one place to be, in Christ. Anyone not found in Christ will never know what it is like to be saved but it is due to their negative attitude to Christ (Jn.3:18), not because God is holding their sin against them. All sin has been dealt with, believer and unbeliever alike.

John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

Let's start here. You believing (in Christ) did not save you. God's determination to save believers is what saved you (Jn.3:16).

Can you post a verse that says a person believing in Christ does not save them? I agree that God’s determination to save believers is what saves them. However, He chose to save people on account of their faith in Christ. The issue, as I see it, is that I believer the Gospel “is the power of God to save everyone who believes“ (Rom. 1:16). The Gospel, in and of itself, is the power of God. Otherwise, if we take things as you present them, the Gospel has zero power. God must determine the individual to be saved in order for them to believe the Gospel. This strips the power of the Gospel and places salvation in God’s predetermined choice. I believe both the above statements are true. I would word it this way…

God has determined to save believers. He has chosen to do this on account of a person believing in the power of the Gospel of Christ.

It is this salvation from death that Christ died for. The wages of sin is death. He died so we could be alive

You’ll need to explain this more. The context of the passage you are citing where Paul says, “I fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith“ is referring to Paul’s confidence facing death itself. He is not talking about living a more spiritually vibrant life. He’s talking about the end of his life and the crown that awaits him as a result of his enduring faith.

There are those who say this only applies to teachers of the word but even if that is so, the passage doubles down on how secure our salvation is because teachers are held to a stricter evaluation and if they get it completely wrong and are still saved, how much more for us whose evaluation is more lenient.

I have no issue with applying this Scripture to all Christians. I agree that there are many Christians who live for worldly things who are still saved, although their works will be burnt up in the end that were not focused on the Kingdom of God and the message of Christ. I have never suggested that Christians who did not live perfect lives are lost. However, there is a difference between renouncing Christ and abandoning the Gospel and not living perfectly.

I have already dealt with the passages referring to Christ’s forgiveness of “all sin.” I think i was very clear on my position. Yet to state it once again, Christ does cover all sin. All sins, past, present and future for the believer are forgiven. However, if someone is not a believer, they are not forgiven. If you reject Christ, he will reject you.

Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of lifE. - Re 2:10. (The clear implication is if you do NOT maintain faith, you will NOT recieve the crown of life)

Remember, then, what you received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come against you. Yet you have still a few names in Sardis, people who have not soiled their garments, and they will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. - Re 3:3–5.

Again…the call here is to wake up and not turn away from Christ. Those who “conquer” are clothed in white and will keep their names in the book of life. The implication, clearly, is that those who do not will NOT be clothed in white and will NOT keep their names in the book of life. Read ahead in Revelation and you will see that the “book of life” pertains to salvation…not sanctification.

 

[sawdust]

Can you post a verse that says a person believing in Christ does not save them? I agree that God’s determination to save believers is what saves them. However, He chose to save people on account of their faith in Christ. The issue, as I see it, is that I believer the Gospel “is the power of God to save everyone who believes“ (Rom. 1:16). The Gospel, in and of itself, is the power of God. Otherwise, if we take things as you present them, the Gospel has zero power. God must determine the individual to be saved in order for them to believe the Gospel. This strips the power of the Gospel and places salvation in God’s predetermined choice. I believe both the above statements are true. I would word it this way…

God has determined to save believers. He has chosen to do this on account of a person believing in the power of the Gospel of Christ.



You’ll need to explain this more. The context of the passage you are citing where Paul says, “I fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith“ is referring to Paul’s confidence facing death itself. He is not talking about living a more spiritually vibrant life. He’s talking about the end of his life and the crown that awaits him as a result of his enduring faith.



I have no issue with applying this Scripture to all Christians. I agree that there are many Christians who live for worldly things who are still saved, although their works will be burnt up in the end that were not focused on the Kingdom of God and the message of Christ. I have never suggested that Christians who did not live perfect lives are lost. However, there is a difference between renouncing Christ and abandoning the Gospel and not living perfectly.

I have already dealt with the passages referring to Christ’s forgiveness of “all sin.” I think i was very clear on my position. Yet to state it once again, Christ does cover all sin. All sins, past, present and future for the believer are forgiven. However, if someone is not a believer, they are not forgiven. If you reject Christ, he will reject you.

Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of lifE. - Re 2:10. (The clear implication is if you do NOT maintain faith, you will NOT recieve the crown of life)

Remember, then, what you received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come against you. Yet you have still a few names in Sardis, people who have not soiled their garments, and they will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. - Re 3:3–5.

Again…the call here is to wake up and not turn away from Christ. Those who “conquer” are clothed in white and will keep their names in the book of life. The implication, clearly, is that those who do not will NOT be clothed in white and will NOT keep their names in the book of life. Read ahead in Revelation and you will see that the “book of life” pertains to salvation…not sanctification.

I have said everything as plain as I can. You still don't understand what I'm saying. I don't know how to say what I have said so many times already any different. You keep making salvation about you and what you do or fail to do. Salvation comes from God, it is a gift, it is not a prize for being a good boy or girl. There are rewards for living the life we have been given if we follow God's protocol as to how that life should be worked out ie. by grace, through faith, in the filling of the Spirit. If we try to work out the spiritual life we have been given any other way, we are walking according to the flesh and we will not be granted rewards but we will still be saved. None of us conquered death so "those who conquer" is not referring to conquering salvation from death, it is referring to those who worked out their salvation in the "proper" manner according to God's word. Name can have different meanings as in character or title. One can be stripped of their title which is a part of their name.

However, there is a difference between renouncing Christ and abandoning the Gospel and not living perfectly.

And there is a difference between those who are saved and those who think they are saved or say they are saved. God is not mocked. He looks into the heart and knows the truth of what a person believes. He does not save those who don't believe, no matter what they claim, nor does He judge upon outward appearance which is all we are able to do.

The Lord Jesus Christ cannot promise to never cast you aside only to later cast you aside. And you can claim "it is not God casting the person away but the soul walking away" as much as you like, but it still requires the Lord letting go and the very verses you quote show the "blotting out" is a work of God. So you have to deal with two contrary positions existing simultaneously and ask yourself how can they both be true at the same time?

 

[Chaps]

I have said everything as plain as I can. You still don't understand what I'm saying. I don't know how to say what I have said so many times already any different. You keep making salvation about you and what you do or fail to do. Salvation comes from God, it is a gift, it is not a prize for being a good boy or girl. There are rewards for living the life we have been given if we follow God's protocol as to how that life should be worked out ie. by grace, through faith, in the filling of the Spirit. If we try to work out the spiritual life we have been given any other way, we are walking according to the flesh and we will not be granted rewards but we will still be saved. None of us conquered death so "those who conquer" is not referring to conquering salvation from death, it is referring to those who worked out their salvation in the "proper" manner according to God's word. Name can have different meanings as in character or title. One can be stripped of their title which is a part of their name.



And there is a difference between those who are saved and those who think they are saved or say they are saved. God is not mocked. He looks into the heart and knows the truth of what a person believes. He does not save those who don't believe, no matter what they claim, nor does He judge upon outward appearance which is all we are able to do.

The Lord Jesus Christ cannot promise to never cast you aside only to later cast you aside. And you can claim "it is not God casting the person away but the soul walking away" as much as you like, but it still requires the Lord letting go and the very verses you quote show the "blotting out" is a work of God. So you have to deal with two contrary positions existing simultaneously and ask yourself how can they both be true at the same time?

I have said everything as plain as I can. You still don't understand what I'm saying. I don't know how to say what I have said so many times already any different.

I just asked for a simple verse to prove your point. You didn’t provide one, so I’ll take that to mean you don’t have one.

Salvation comes from God, it is a gift, it is not a prize for being a good boy or girl.

I never said it didn’t come from God or that it was a prize for being good. Using strawman arguments to discredit my position isn’t a very Christian response, imo. I am trying to post Scriptures and rationale regarding my beliefs. It’s fine you dont agree with them, but I dont see the point in misrepresenting my views in an attempt to establish your own.

None of us conquered death so "those who conquer" is not referring to conquering salvation from death, it is referring to those who worked out their salvation in the "proper" manner according to God's word. Name can have different meanings as in character or title. One can be stripped of their title which is a part of their name.

Can you expound on this? So conquering is not related to salvation…but living a victorious Christian life? Is that what you are suggesting? So those who do not conquer, still are saved, but just dont get the same reward? Is that your position?

Out of time…ill respond to the rest later

 

[Lamar]

Our debt is still cancelled and you failed to see the context is about judgement, not salvation.

Spin it anyway you want but the servant's forgiveness was revoked.

32 “Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33 Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ 34 In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.35 “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”

There was a re-imposition of the servant's judgement which of course canceled his salvation.

You are simply blinded to this fact. You are certainly not alone in this ditch.

 

[Cameron143]

Spin it anyway you want but the servant's forgiveness was revoked.

32 “Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33 Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ 34 In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.35 “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”

There was a re-imposition of the servant's judgement which of course canceled his salvation.

You are simply blinded to this fact. You are certainly not alone in this ditch.

The story is about forgivness; not salvation.

 

[sawdust]

I just asked for a simple verse to prove your point. You didn’t provide one, so I’ll take that to mean you don’t have one.

No, your question was nonsensical. I have said many times God only saves believers and you ask me for a verse that shows believing is not necessary for salvation? You obviously are not on the same page and I cannot say what I have already said in any other way.

Have a nice day.

 

[sawdust]

Spin it anyway you want but the servant's forgiveness was revoked.

32 “Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33 Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ 34 In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.35 “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”

There was a re-imposition of the servant's judgement which of course canceled his salvation.

You are simply blinded to this fact. You are certainly not alone in this ditch.

Yes but it's just a generalization and there are always exceptions. You said so yourself. It's not my spin, it's your reasoning.

 

[sawdust]

I never said it didn’t come from God or that it was a prize for being good. Using strawman arguments to discredit my position isn’t a very Christian response, imo. I am trying to post Scriptures and rationale regarding my beliefs. It’s fine you dont agree with them, but I dont see the point in misrepresenting my views in an attempt to establish your own.

I never said you said salvation is not from God but you did equate salvation from death as a prize when you said the following in post#501. (bold mine)

If you stop running, you dont get the prize.

So I am not misrepresenting you, nor am I using straw arguments so you can stop with the false accusations.

 

[Genez]

The Bible teaches that salvation happens in a moment, but it also teaches that one must “endure to the end” to be saved..

Who and what was Jesus speaking those words to? Christians?

 

[Chaps]

Who and what was Jesus speaking those words to? Christians?

I think he was speaking to everyone. But the statement assumes, imo, that someone has begun to endure in order to endure “to the end.” In fact, the parable of the seeds suggests that there are some who hear and accept the words of Jesus early one, but do not persist and grow in their faith and allow Christ’s words to remain in them.

Also, Jesus speaks to his disciples when he talks with them in John 15 about the importance of abiding in him. Those who do not abide are like branches that are cut off, wither and die. So, whether it was a passing listener or one of his disciples, its seems to me that his message is consistent for all.

 

[Chaps]

I never said you said salvation is not from God but you did equate salvation from death as a prize when you said the following in post#501. (bold mine)



So I am not misrepresenting you, nor am I using straw arguments so you can stop with the false accusations.

Running the race is keeping the faith. So it’s not a “work.” Faith is contrasted with “works” in the NT. So, yes, suggesting that I am arguing that we work for our salvation or earn it…or that it comes from us and not God… is a false accusation. I have never said this nor suggested it. My argument is that someone must keep the faith. Our keeping the faith is not a work, but it is something we are expected to do as believers. Believing in Jesus is the opposite of “working” for salvation.

 

[Genez]

I think he was speaking to everyone. But the statement assumes, imo, that someone has begun to endure in order to endure “to the end.” In fact, the parable of the seeds suggests that there are some who hear and accept the words of Jesus early one, but do not persist and grow in their faith and allow Christ’s words to remain in them.

Also, Jesus speaks to his disciples when he talks with them in John 15 about the importance of abiding in him. Those who do not abide are like branches that are cut off, wither and die. So, whether it was a passing listener or one of his disciples, its seems to me that his message is consistent for all.

Not so....

Jesus was speaking to Jews.

When you said: "The Bible teaches that salvation happens in a moment, but it also teaches that one must “endure to the end” to be saved.. "



At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other,
and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase
of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but the one who stands firm to the end
will be saved." Matthew 24:10-13


Jesus was speaking to Jews as a rabbi teaching Jews..
His disciples were all Jews. ...
He was speaking concerning Jews who will be going through the Tribulation. Christians will not.

The Jews who will endure the Tribulation to its end by remaining in the truth, will be saved/delivered, and entered into the Millennium alive.

We can not lose our salvation in Christ!

Read carefully the following words of Jesus....

John 6:36-39​

​

But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. All those ​

the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never ​

drive away. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none ​

of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.​

Thinks about what Jesus just said.. For any Christian to lose his salvation?
It would have to mean Jesus failed to do the will of the Father.

Time to get your thinking straight with God.

If need be. Read what Jesus said again.


grace and peace...

 

[Sipsey]

I think he was speaking to everyone. But the statement assumes, imo, that someone has begun to endure in order to endure “to the end.” In fact, the parable of the seeds suggests that there are some who hear and accept the words of Jesus early one, but do not persist and grow in their faith and allow Christ’s words to remain in them.

Also, Jesus speaks to his disciples when he talks with them in John 15 about the importance of abiding in him. Those who do not abide are like branches that are cut off, wither and die. So, whether it was a passing listener or one of his disciples, its seems to me that his message is consistent for all.

1 John- 18Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 19They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. 20But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. 21I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

 

[Genez]

1 John- 18Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 19They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. 20But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. 21I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

​

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, ​

they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they ​

might be made manifest that they were not all of us. John 2:19​

That means something very applicable to us today.

That the ones we see presenting antagonistic teachings? They started going to church - learned for a season - and then left.
Only to come back with resentment for what they were exposed to, and use distorted teachings to try to prevent growing
believers from progressing in growing in correction, knowledge, and understanding.

That is why we see the cranks and kooks who say wrong things, and then act stubborn and stupid when shown corrections...
And will keep trying to disrupt the dialogue until put on Ignore by those with enough sense to know they are up to no good.
They are of a spirit that wishes to sabotage what was becoming mutually beneficial discourses in threads.

They might do it with a smiley face and ooze with sincerity to try to appeal to the soft side of some.

That is why that verse is there as for a warning about today. For, they are here posting in Christian forums! Antichrists.

In a church with a good pastor... He would chase them off if they refused to keep silent. Nice guy pastors who think they must
love them into the kingdom ends up petting snakes. That is one reason why too few churches are really effectual in producing
sound doctrinal teachings to grow strong by.

Its war. You do not have to like it.

grace and peace .........