Does anyone know of....

Paul, in the Holy Spirit (Rom. 9:1) was plagued with great sorrow and unceasing grief at the thought of his fellow kinsmen not being saved (Romans 9:2-3).

Seems Paul was not so buoyant, I wonder why, maybe because he knew and correctly taught God does not play favorites (Acts 10:34) and the reason why not all are saved is because God’s promise of salvation is conditional, rather than unconditional.

I don't know any Calvinist who is convinced He is not chosen, though I did interract with one Buddhist who dabbled in it and assumed he was not chosen.

But I don't understand the second question. What is the opposite of "being assured of our salvation because of predestination"?

You nailed it! The words "who is altogether passive therein, until, being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit, he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it" indicate the call to place one's faith in Christ is "altogether passive" until a person is "enabled" to act on the call by "being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit". This gets the sequence of events backwards. God created the paradigm that He would quicken and renew (i.e., save) those who chose to believe the seemingly foolish message that Jesus Christ His Son died on the cross for their sins.


This is the achilles heel of 5-point Calvinism.

Wait are you asserting we save ourselves!!! For shame!!

Yes indeed the Achilles heel, yet, this is the very point that many agree with, support, defend, all the while saying it is not a Calvinistic tenet.

If one supports this they have placed themselves within Calvinist teachings.

I wonder how it is that Christians who are partakers of the divine nature, are indwelt with the Holy Spirit, and given spiritual gifts, are unable to do anything apart from Christ, but the natural man is able to operate apart from Him.
I also wonder what transpires in and to an individual that makes him or her no longer believe the gospel message is foolishness.
Perhaps someone can explain these things to me.

I know it was a quip, but it's a point worth expounding on. "Faith" does not save anyone (i.e., our faith does not save us). God saves people when they place their trust in Him. And salvation has two parts: 1) not perishing, and 2) having eternal life.


And a careful reading of the Scriptures indicate believing in Jesus is the one thing that God requires before He saves them. It is why Jesus told those who enquired about how they may labor "for the food that endures to everlasting life" that they must "believe in Him whom He sent".


Calvinism has a very cynical view on this call. It says you must believe in order to be saved, but you are precluded from believing unless you are chosen to believe.

Yeah, dishonest. Enabled is not forced/made to believe. Try being honest.

Nehemiah6 said:

the Holy Spirit making them believe even if they were so totally "depraved" that they could not do so.

Click to expand...

Are you going to withdraw your false accusation and tender an apology?

Romans 1 gives us some insight into this. It says that the invisible attributes of God, including His eternal power and Godhead, are clearly seen by people because He personally has shown it to them. And although they knew these things about God were true, they chose to reject God. This is why they will have no exuse when they stand before Him in judgement. As an asside, this is how we know there no such thing as an "Atheist".
John 6:45 gives us some insight into this.


It says God is personally involved in every salvation experience. He is personally drawing all people to Himself. When a person hears Him, and learns from Him, he goes to Jesus for salvation. And as Jesus said, He will not reject anyone who comes to Him.
Note that God interracts personally with all people. Some reject Him and receive condemnation and others receive Him and receive salvation. He doesn't choose ahead of time what path people will take.

Agree and agree.

Yes, and unlike you, Paul understood that God does not reveal Himself to all the same way, which you claim is unfair.

You impugn the character of God.

Personal revelation is called unfair by some, who think God ought to reveal Himself to everyone exactly the
same way. That means they think we should all have a burning bush experience or road to Damascus etc.
Obviously, we do not. You would think such people would realize this, but apparently, they do not.
They reject what the Bible actually says in favor of their preferences which impugn God's character.


Romans 9:19-21 One of you will say to me, “Then why does God still find fault? For who can resist His will?” But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to Him who formed it, “Why did You make me like this?” Does not the potter have the right to make from the same lump of clay one vessel for special occasions and another for common use?

Jesus' words in John 6:45b and John 6:39b

Ten sinners are in church sitting right next to each other. They all hear the same message, but only one is affected. The message penetrates his innermost being and he bows his head in shame and repentance – thanking God for the mercy and forgiveness he just received.
Why only one?
Because God poured His Spirit out on this man only, giving him a heart to believe!
Please stop trying to rob God of the glory that is displayed each time a person turns to Him in faith!
The glory belongs to God and God alone! This change does not take place because of man's work, but because of God's grace.

Seems as though most posters think that repentance and belief come before the Spirits work...............

Knowing that God exists is true for all people, even for those who deny His existence. As Romans 1 says. Romans 2 says by conscience we also know God exists. And Ecclesiastes 3 says we know of the existence of God because He has placed eternity in our hearts. But simply knowing of the existence of God is insufficient for salvation, otherwise everyone would be saved. While all experience God as Creator, not all experience Him as Savior. What causes one individual to reject the gospel and another individual hearing the same message to be saved? Why does one find it to be foolishness while the other finds words that work life into them?
I asked these questions in light of the fact that Jesus tells saved people they can do nothing apart from Him, yet some here are proposing that unsaved people can do things apart from Him.
You are correct that God is intimately involved in salvation. But this is an admission that man alone cannot do anything apart from God. So let me ask the question a little differently: is there anything in the natural man that must be overcome to enable him to believe? If so, what is it? And how is it overcome?

I was made alive in Christ while I was yet dead in my trespasses and sins. I believe that is the correct order of events for all. At some point after that, perhaps it was a number of years? My heart was circumcized. That is a must for everyone also, for the natural man cannot love God otherwise, for he is hostile in his mind toward Him. Being drawn by God and having God reveal Himself to me personally in a number of ways over a period of many years finally convinced me of the Truth of God's revealed written Word and in the sacrifice His Son made for me in spilling His righteous blood on my behalf, that I might have life more abundant, be reconciled to God, and escape the second death. It was at this point I was sealed with the Holy Spirit of God, and had the right to call myself one of His children.


Ephesians 1:13-14

“yet some here are proposing that unsaved people can do things apart from Him.”
Every human lives thier lives constantly talking and doing thing d thier whole life . This is true of an Islamic man who Denys Christ or a Christian man who accepts him

every man has a life’s work regardless of what they believed. Some men live life in a bad way hurting people taking advantage ect they can do this if they believe in God or are an atheist

and sone also love good decent imperfect of course but good decent lives also Thisnos true of believers and non believers . I’ve known some amazing selfless decent people in my time who would argue with me for hours how silly it is for me to believe in Jesus . But they see a man in need and they’ll go help him . They are honest and peaceful ect

ive also known professing believers who are truly selfish people who lie cheat and steal only considering themselves in life taking advantage of everyone around them ect

God is not forcing them to do these things or doing these things through them . Gods work in a Christian is to heal them so that they can now do being healed and quickened by his spirit.

“It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:63‬ ‭KJV‬‬

to “ quicken “ is like sort of um ….a seed has life within it already but it’s dormant it’s not active. To “quicken “ is the process tbat causes the seed , to sprout the life that’s inside of it outward to make tbat life active or to activate that dormant life. The seed has life in it but it was never a living plant until it was “quickened”

“For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.”( his word can change us internally where the issue of a sinner is )
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭4:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Our problem is here this is the source of man’s sinful behaviors

“For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: all these evil things come from within, and defile the man.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭7:21-23‬ ‭

That’s the condition of mankind after the fall in Eden taking the forbidden knowledge of good and evil caused this corruption within us

“I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭7:21-23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

That’s why we’re called captives to sin or slaves ect or “sinners “ Man wasnt created to have this inner conflict God forbid the knowledge of good and evil because it caused that problem in us. We aren’t supposed to decide for ourselves what’s good and evil , we were created to simply listen to what God said about all things and believe him and live

We changed from what he created us to be by transgressing what he said through disbelief by following satans idea instead of Gods command that was to preserve and keep man safe



“And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: ( this is when man lost his right to the tree of life and entered into the curse of death )

So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:22, 24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Gods work in the gospel is to teach us the truth of Gods Will and to teach us to be as we were meant to be , repent and then listen to what God tells us about things , believe him and follow like he says to do. Walk by faith is man’s original design hesr and follow what God said is right and good and keep from those things he said will cause death.

Gods work isnt to excuse us because we are just sinners enslaved by Satan and can’t do anything else . It is to tell man the truth , just like he did Adam and then of course satan is going to come after and tell us his word about the matter …..if we accept what God said making that our belief we’ll change but as Christian’s we are in a war within our own self it began here

“And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

And now as Christian’s this is what Jesus and Peter and Paul and John and the others taught them who believes in Jesus

“For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. ( there’s an option there for the person hearing it )

This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.



But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:13, 16-17, 19-26‬ ‭KJV‬‬


His work in us is as we accept the doctrine he is changing our Will over to be in line with his so that we will want to and also do those things that are his good pleasure and will for mankind.

mankinds inherancy in creation assures that they can do things apart from God every time they sin they are doing the opposite of his Will.

I Can do all things through Christ who gives me strength

verses

christ will do all things for me and I don’t need to do anything

we all have an independent will brother each human . With it we will serve the lords will or satans Will. This happens through corruption or redemption

jesus came to heal the issues in us that make us unable to walk after his Will as is mankinds purpose and design to be free from the sin and death and walk in his life and spirit

Amen sister

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“in whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2:11-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The bible actually says this about evil clearly is is not from GOD;
Jas 1:12 Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him.
Jas 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.
Jas 1:14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.
Jas 1:15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.

This answer by HeIsHere is pretty much it. So in the OP two questions are asked. 1. Could a Calvinist, or those that hold the doctrine of inherited sin, assert that they are not the chosen few? 2. Could a Calvinist or one that holds the doctrine of inherited sin assert their predestination to damnation? The answer to both these questions would be no. Since they believe in inherited sin this means that they are so totally depraved that they think they are the chosen few even while they are actually in a state of damnation, and they cannot even perceive that they are actually damned. Rather than repent for their own sins and take personal responsibility for their own sins they're so blinded that they are left to justify their sins perpetually by blaming Adam. But let's take this a step further and suppose that they answer yes to both questions. Then at this point they would be put into a position where they'd have to choose to either stay obstinately in their damned lot in order to keep their doctrine or elsewise renounce their doctrine and convert to Christianity so that they might be forgiven by God and receive his forgiveness. If we suppose they choose to keep their doctrine then they will have to delude themselves into thinking they're the chosen few and they will not be able to perceive that they are actually damned, and in essence they will have to then change their answer of yes to both questions and instead answer no to both questions.. If they renounce their doctrine and convert to Christianity on the other hand then they are no longer a Calvinist at which point then they will again have to change their answer from yes to both the questions into an answer of no to both the questions.

In brief, the OP is somewhat of a genius, and it's a fun logic game.

I'm not suggesting that man isn't alive naturally and doesn't have use of his faculties. Neither am I suggesting that the Christian life is not an interactive relationship between Christ and the believer. But fallen man is at enmity with God, walks contrary to His ways, and finds the gospel to be foolishness. In addition, Jesus says of the Christian that apart from Him they can do nothing. So I find it a fair question to ask how does one go from their fallen estate to a saved estate apart from Christ. What happens in and to an individual that the gospel that was once anathema is now good news? Did they just wake up one day and change all that was formerly true of them? Is that possible?

Natural man does not have to overcome (presupposition).... the natural man is BORN with the moral ability when presented with the GOD's Spirit wrought power and truth in the Gospel message to respond in belief or deny.