Does anyone know of....
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Okay, yes I get it now. 
This has been awesome, verses out of their surrounding context, not exegeted which are not even about soteriology.
This has been awesome, verses out of their surrounding context, not exegeted which are not even about soteriology.
I'm curious here, after reading so many pages of this thread, and the very focused attack and hatred of Calvinist doctrine. Who here calls themselves Calvinist? I only ask this because I'm very curious who here even calls themselves this. I have been accused of being a "Calvinist" myself, yet I've never read a thing John Calvin has written, never once in my life have I ever called or thought of myself as a Calvinist, or ever taught or defended anything the Calvinist would declare, like the five points.
I've also never seen anyone that I can remember here call themselves Calvinist either. Yet I see a TON of people condemning others for there "Calvinism", yet it ALWAYS seems to be those pointing their fingers that are telling those they condemn exactly what they believe. I see them go into great detail in telling the other person the belief that they believe, before they trash it. Yet I never seem to see the part were the person they attack says or teaches the belief they are told they believe. These anti-Calvinist HAVE to build a straw man to attack because the people they condemn are not ever saying what they're being accused of believing.
I was just curious, because I don't see many on here teaching Calvinism, NONE teaching the stuff they condemn, and I know there are people who are Calvinist in the world, but in this thread right now I'm curious about how many here are Calvinist?
I've also never seen anyone that I can remember here call themselves Calvinist either. Yet I see a TON of people condemning others for there "Calvinism", yet it ALWAYS seems to be those pointing their fingers that are telling those they condemn exactly what they believe. I see them go into great detail in telling the other person the belief that they believe, before they trash it. Yet I never seem to see the part were the person they attack says or teaches the belief they are told they believe. These anti-Calvinist HAVE to build a straw man to attack because the people they condemn are not ever saying what they're being accused of believing.
I was just curious, because I don't see many on here teaching Calvinism, NONE teaching the stuff they condemn, and I know there are people who are Calvinist in the world, but in this thread right now I'm curious about how many here are Calvinist?
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It seem to me that most people here believe that they, in their own power, saved themselves – or at the very least, the fact that they were saved could not have taken place without their approval! This simply is not so, and to believe that it is, robs God of His glory. Why would they in their right mind do that?
It is clear that God does all things for His own good pleasure. To think otherwise, is to promote a week kneed God, one that can be thwarted from doing with His creation as He wishes. Do they not remember verses such as: Luke 12:7 Why, even the hairs of your head are all numbered.
Such scripture should make you drop to your knees and acknowledge the one true God who holds all things in the palm of His hand. But it is easier for many to say “God would not give a special blessing to His people only” - therefore you must be a Calvinist!
It's not that we are Calvinist, we simple believe that everything that come to pass is due to God's perfect plan. And His plan does not provide salvation to all people.
That's a difficult concept to wrap your mind around!
It is clear that God does all things for His own good pleasure. To think otherwise, is to promote a week kneed God, one that can be thwarted from doing with His creation as He wishes. Do they not remember verses such as: Luke 12:7 Why, even the hairs of your head are all numbered.
Such scripture should make you drop to your knees and acknowledge the one true God who holds all things in the palm of His hand. But it is easier for many to say “God would not give a special blessing to His people only” - therefore you must be a Calvinist!
It's not that we are Calvinist, we simple believe that everything that come to pass is due to God's perfect plan. And His plan does not provide salvation to all people.
That's a difficult concept to wrap your mind around!
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I am not a Calvinist and have repeatedly stood against Calvinism yet am called a Calvinist by those who have
no interest in understanding what I say but only condemning me based on their lack of comprehension
combined with their adamant adhesion to their un-Biblical ear tickling doctrines and traditions of man.
no interest in understanding what I say but only condemning me based on their lack of comprehension
combined with their adamant adhesion to their un-Biblical ear tickling doctrines and traditions of man.
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I am curious if the Nicolaitans called themselves Nicolaitans. Does it even matter?
A rose by any other name and a shoe that fits.
You seem to be concerned more about the outside of the cup. It is their teachings that are of more concern.
Since you have been reading so many of these pages, what "label" would you prefer.
I do not need to "tell them what they believe" they have clearly stated it.
A rose by any other name and a shoe that fits.
You seem to be concerned more about the outside of the cup. It is their teachings that are of more concern.
Since you have been reading so many of these pages, what "label" would you prefer.
I do not need to "tell them what they believe" they have clearly stated it.
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To the first question the answer would be no, they would be so totally depraved that they would think that they are the chosen few when in fact they are not. To the second question, also no, for the same reason that they could not be assured their salvation they would not be able to perceive their own damnation. This is sort of the problem with Calvinism and more widely those that hold the doctrine of original sin/total depravity, since there is no personal accountability there is no need to repent or give confession and being forgiven so they're pretty much just stuck in an endless loop of justifying their sins by laying the blame on Adam.
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Your problem is - that you either do not understand "Depravity" or you deny it. Stated another way - you do not understand the depth of man's fall. Additionally, you do not seem to comprehend the true "Sin Nature".
You stated a concern about one sinning daily and you should be concerned, as should we all; however, let me ask: Do you know someone apart from Jesus Christ, that does not sin daily? If you do, then this is my response: 1Jn_1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1Jn_1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
As to Sanctification - you would be correct in your view. It is a joint operation daily between the Lord and ourselves. Believers "slowly" make their way towards a more Holy life, becoming perfected only in their final Glorification, putting on the body made by God and NOT of human hands. Likewise, Conversion is a joint work between God and the one coming to Christ.
NEVERTHELESS, none of the above could or would be done by us, if FIRST, we were not Regenerated by the Holy Spirit, which is all of God, the Spirit working in the "passive" recipient, as described in John 3:3-10
You stated a concern about one sinning daily and you should be concerned, as should we all; however, let me ask: Do you know someone apart from Jesus Christ, that does not sin daily? If you do, then this is my response: 1Jn_1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1Jn_1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
As to Sanctification - you would be correct in your view. It is a joint operation daily between the Lord and ourselves. Believers "slowly" make their way towards a more Holy life, becoming perfected only in their final Glorification, putting on the body made by God and NOT of human hands. Likewise, Conversion is a joint work between God and the one coming to Christ.
NEVERTHELESS, none of the above could or would be done by us, if FIRST, we were not Regenerated by the Holy Spirit, which is all of God, the Spirit working in the "passive" recipient, as described in John 3:3-10
May I say, that even though you have stated nothing of your own beliefs, your conclusions are nothing short of BIZZARE.
No Christian Doctrine, that I am aware of, teaches there is no personal accountability or no need to repent or no need to be forgiven. Certainly not in John Calvin's works. Example:
Calvin's response to Pighius about sin: "That his teaching on sin serves to remind human beings that they should blame themselves and not put the blame elsewhere when they find the root of evil in themselves. Secondly, they must give credit to God when doing good deeds. Thirdly, only God in his omnipotence is able to restrain and bridle sin. The believers should thus find comfort in God's omnipotence, not in their own capacity to fight evil" (Calvin 1996:38-39, CO 6.257).
No Christian Doctrine, that I am aware of, teaches there is no personal accountability or no need to repent or no need to be forgiven. Certainly not in John Calvin's works. Example:
Calvin's response to Pighius about sin: "That his teaching on sin serves to remind human beings that they should blame themselves and not put the blame elsewhere when they find the root of evil in themselves. Secondly, they must give credit to God when doing good deeds. Thirdly, only God in his omnipotence is able to restrain and bridle sin. The believers should thus find comfort in God's omnipotence, not in their own capacity to fight evil" (Calvin 1996:38-39, CO 6.257).
No one who is truly saved believes this nonsense. So this is just a straw man.
The ones who talk about this simply ignore what is actually stated in Scripture. So when the Bible says " BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved" the ones who talk about "own power" should stop and ask themselves "Am I the one who is commanded to believe?" And if that is true then who is the one who must respond to the Gospel? Now is that "own power" or is that your response to that command?
So let's tear down this "own power" straw man with Scripture: Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God? He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him? And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee. And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him. (John 9:35-38)
Was this man's heart, mind, and will all involved when he said "Lord I believe"? And is that not true for every person who was truly saved? And would not that include every Calvinist who claims that he had nothing to do with his salvation? Did Christ give that man who believed on Him the Holy Spirit before he believed? And did not Peter say repent (and believe) and you will receive the gift of the Holy Ghost? (Acts 2:38). Those men were "pricked in their hearts" and is that not true for everyone who has been saved?
And yet Calvinists promote these totally unbiblical teachings about (1) God electing some for salvation (and of course others for damnation), (2) God giving these UNSAVED people the gift of the Holy Spirit BEFORE they have believed, and (3) the Holy Spirit making them believe even if they were so totally "depraved" that they could not do so. (4) Therefore they had nothing to do with their salvation. And this is supposed to uphold the "sovereignty" of God?
The Reformers rightly taught Sola Scriptura, but they all ignored the fact that the Bible says that God will have ALL men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. That effectively cancels "UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION in TULIP.
The ones who talk about this simply ignore what is actually stated in Scripture. So when the Bible says " BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved" the ones who talk about "own power" should stop and ask themselves "Am I the one who is commanded to believe?" And if that is true then who is the one who must respond to the Gospel? Now is that "own power" or is that your response to that command?
So let's tear down this "own power" straw man with Scripture: Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God? He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him? And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee. And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him. (John 9:35-38)
Was this man's heart, mind, and will all involved when he said "Lord I believe"? And is that not true for every person who was truly saved? And would not that include every Calvinist who claims that he had nothing to do with his salvation? Did Christ give that man who believed on Him the Holy Spirit before he believed? And did not Peter say repent (and believe) and you will receive the gift of the Holy Ghost? (Acts 2:38). Those men were "pricked in their hearts" and is that not true for everyone who has been saved?
And yet Calvinists promote these totally unbiblical teachings about (1) God electing some for salvation (and of course others for damnation), (2) God giving these UNSAVED people the gift of the Holy Spirit BEFORE they have believed, and (3) the Holy Spirit making them believe even if they were so totally "depraved" that they could not do so. (4) Therefore they had nothing to do with their salvation. And this is supposed to uphold the "sovereignty" of God?
The Reformers rightly taught Sola Scriptura, but they all ignored the fact that the Bible says that God will have ALL men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. That effectively cancels "UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION in TULIP.
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Don't accuse me falsely of dishonesty. Your attacks are unbecoming. And you will need to withdraw that and tender an apology after reading what I now post:
That is exactly what that teaching is. Do you even know that there is a Reformed Westminster Confession of Faith which says EXACTLY THAT?
2. This effectual call is of God’s free and special grace alone, not from any thing at all foreseen in man, (2 Tim. 1:9, Tit. 3:4–5, Eph. 2:4–5, 8–9) who is altogether passive therein, until, being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit, (1 Cor. 2:14, Rom. 8:7, Eph. 2:5) he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it. (John 6:37, John 5:25)
https://westminsterstandards.org/westminster-confession-of-faith/
Did you get that? First the sinner is "quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit" and only then "he is enabled thereby to ... embrace the grace..." And here is what I stated: "The Holy Spirit making them believe even if they were so totally "depraved" that they could not do so". And this is the reverse of what is taught in Scripture.
That is exactly what that teaching is. Do you even know that there is a Reformed Westminster Confession of Faith which says EXACTLY THAT?
2. This effectual call is of God’s free and special grace alone, not from any thing at all foreseen in man, (2 Tim. 1:9, Tit. 3:4–5, Eph. 2:4–5, 8–9) who is altogether passive therein, until, being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit, (1 Cor. 2:14, Rom. 8:7, Eph. 2:5) he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it. (John 6:37, John 5:25)
https://westminsterstandards.org/westminster-confession-of-faith/
Did you get that? First the sinner is "quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit" and only then "he is enabled thereby to ... embrace the grace..." And here is what I stated: "The Holy Spirit making them believe even if they were so totally "depraved" that they could not do so". And this is the reverse of what is taught in Scripture.
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That would be incorrect, it is not established in scripture anywhere that a person dead in their sins equates to a person is BORN being unable to recognize their sins and respond positively to the TRUTH and power of the message of the Gospel which brings conviction.
So far there is no Calvinist/Augustinian/Reformed/Westminster Confession people (because this is the definitive separating belief of this creed which separates it from biblical reality)
who can show from scripture that people are BORN not based on single proof texts taken out of context but by examining/exegeting verses that clearly indicate otherwise.
Make a solid case you cannot because it is not in scripture it is philosophy.
So far there is no Calvinist/Augustinian/Reformed/Westminster Confession people (because this is the definitive separating belief of this creed which separates it from biblical reality)
who can show from scripture that people are BORN not based on single proof texts taken out of context but by examining/exegeting verses that clearly indicate otherwise.
Make a solid case you cannot because it is not in scripture it is philosophy.
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Yes... this is a good summary.
The key words being effectual and enabled.
It is the reverse.
19 “Wherefore, O King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision,
20 but declared first to those at Damascus, then at Jerusalem and throughout all the country of Judea, and also to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God and perform deeds worthy of their repentance.
Paul does not state I was enabled to be obedient, he states I (taking responsibility) was not disobedient.
He did not preach.....
"They cannot Repent, because they are BORN unable because of their fallen state, I suggested they wait and see if God enables some of them after He regenerates them, like He did for me so He can display His divine mercy and sovereignty because God is many things, not just love, it is a bit of balancing act you know!!!"
So much eisegesis it is unbearable.
The key words being effectual and enabled.
It is the reverse.
19 “Wherefore, O King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision,
20 but declared first to those at Damascus, then at Jerusalem and throughout all the country of Judea, and also to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God and perform deeds worthy of their repentance.
Paul does not state I was enabled to be obedient, he states I (taking responsibility) was not disobedient.
He did not preach.....
"They cannot Repent, because they are BORN unable because of their fallen state, I suggested they wait and see if God enables some of them after He regenerates them, like He did for me so He can display His divine mercy and sovereignty because God is many things, not just love, it is a bit of balancing act you know!!!"
So much eisegesis it is unbearable.
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