Total Depravity

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HeIsHere

HeIsHere

Well-known member
#41
May 21, 2022
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#41
studier said:
Always enjoy that verse especially with it's last phrase that few seem to speak about
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A doctrine that is cogent and coherent can tackle the verses that seemingly appear to contradict it, however, there are verses that support the coherent doctrine that need the light shone on them as well! :)
 
Jimbone

Jimbone

Senior Member
#42
Aug 22, 2014
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#42
TMS said:
Total depravity... the first point that calvanists believe.

Please prove from the word the difference and which is correct,
Between....
We are born without sin, sinless.

We are born with sinful tendency but not sin.

We are born as one that has already sinned.
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We are born spiritually dead and disconnected from God.

The day Adam ate the fruit, his spirit died and mankind was disconnected spiritually from God. Eve was too. They could then only reproduce spiritually dead children and that's how when we are born "in Adam", we are born "in sin". Every man on this planet ever born was born this way...... save one. See Mary was not impregnated by a man was she. This wasn't just for God to "show off", Jesus was conceived of the Holy Spirit, He was born whole and not of the corrupt seed of Adam. That is why they call him the 2nd Adam. And also why the virgin birth was necessary and is so completely genius.

So total depravity is a way of saying that we are ALL born broken, ad it is absolutely truth, even for the little new born baby. It would be so tragic concerning babies dying, if I didn't know how merciful and forgiving our glorious God is. So what do you think, are we "born good"?
 
Jimbone

Jimbone

Senior Member
#43
Aug 22, 2014
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#43
HeIsHere said:
“…from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness…”

(2 Tim. 3:15-16)

The Calvinist begins on the wrong footing when he reads the phrase,

“the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing,” and assumes that man’s “unregenerate” nature determined his assessment in such a way that he could not have deemed it otherwise.

God does NOT determine or decree all of mankind to deem His own word as foolish.


That is the free choice* of those depending on “human wisdom” versus those depending on the spiritually wrought truth of “divine revelation.” It is mankind’s responsibility to decide on which to place their trust.
L. Flowers.
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Sorry Jesus says we are never free. We are slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness. There is no "free" will.
 
wwjdmichael101

wwjdmichael101

Member
#47
Jun 29, 2024
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#47
Magenta said:
It has been an ongoing discussion and back and forths for a number of weeks between a few people in this thread:

Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR - Christian Chat Rooms & Forums

It was started in February and is currently 457 pages long with over 9,000 posts. Good luck![/QUOTI
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Nehemiah6 said:
And exactly how does this intervention occur?

You can either believe the lie that God elects some for salvation and the majority for damnation, or you can believe the Gospel truth that because God desires the salvation of all humanity, Christ has commanded the Church to preach the Gospel TO EVERY CREATURE. Those who obey the Gospel are saved. Those who reject the Gospel are not.

TOTAL DEPRAVITY makes the false claim that the unsaved are totally incapable of understanding and believing the Gospel. vTherefore God gives the Holy Spirit to the unsaved "elect", and then they believe. You will not find this nonsense in Scripture. What you will find in Scripture is this:

1, First comes the preaching of the true Gospel.
2. Then comes the convicting and convincing of the Holy Spirit.
3, Then comes either repentance and faith, or no repentance and faith.
4. Then comes justification by grace through faith.
5. Then comes the gift of the Holy Spirit to those who obey the Gospel..
6. Then comes the supernatural New Birth, and all that follows in the saving plan of God.
7. Then comes sanctification by the power of the indwelling Spirit.
8. Then comes glorification at the Resurrection/Rapture.
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You asked "And exactly how does this intervetion accure?"
John 16:8
Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they do not believe in Me; of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged. “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.

It is my understanding that it is the work of the Holy Spirit that convicts the heart of sin that brings about repentance. The Bible teaches no one can come to the Father unless the Father draws them. John 6:44. Jesus says, "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day"12. This passage emphasizes the necessity of divine intervention for someone to come to faith in Jesus.
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#48
Jul 31, 2013
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#48
Mem said:
Might it be that no one seeks Him because they are unaware of HIs grace? Adam hid from Him, after all.
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Adam answered when God called Him, but before God called him, he was ashamed and afraid, hearing the sound of Him walking in the garden.
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#49
Jul 31, 2013
37,780
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#49
HeIsHere said:
“…from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness…”

(2 Tim. 3:15-16)
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i notice it says The Word of God is able to give us this wisdom, rather than it being already inherent in our nature, and that it is implicit we need salvation.
 
Mem

Mem

Senior Member
#50
Sep 23, 2014
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#50
posthuman said:
Adam answered when God called Him, but before God called him, he was ashamed and afraid, hearing the sound of Him walking in the garden.
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Yes, but perfect love casts out fear. So, Adam must not have been fully aware of God's perfect love for him.
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#51
Jul 3, 2015
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#51
wwjdmichael101 said:
It is my understanding that it is the work of the Holy Spirit that convicts the heart of sin that brings about repentance. The Bible teaches no one can come to the Father unless the Father draws them. John 6:44. Jesus says, "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day"12. This passage emphasizes the necessity of divine intervention for someone to come to faith in Jesus.
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Precisely! Yet there are those who believe they needed no help from God at all, and that the natural man is
perfectly capable, while a slave to sin, of making a choice to believe the One he is hostile in his mind toward.
They are stuck on some made up doctrine that is nowhere found or taught in the Bible.


Jesus’ words in John 6:65
:)
 
M

MerSee

Active member
#52
Jan 13, 2024
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#52
Believing the correct/ sound doctrine of Jesus Christ isn't difficult. Claiming ignorance won't help those who refuse to believe the correct/sound doctrine of Jesus Christ. (y)
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#53
Jul 31, 2013
37,780
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#53
Mem said:
Yes, but perfect love casts out fear. So, Adam must not have been fully aware of God's perfect love for him.
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he'd never needed to be forgiven before..

i wonder what he was afraid of?
:unsure:
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#57
Jul 3, 2015
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#57
posthuman said:
disappointing his Father?
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Hmmm. Disappointment was not given as a consequence that we know... And besides,
God knew what Adam would choose. Adam was, after all, of the natural world.
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#58
Jul 31, 2013
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#58
Magenta said:
Hmmm. Disappointment was not given as a consequence that we know... And besides,
God knew what Adam would choose. Adam was, after all, of the natural world.
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well the Torah couples nakedness with shame. so it's natural we understand that they were ashamed and afraid. and this is the feeling also, when you know you have let someone down whom you love, and it is time to face them, and confess to it.
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#59
Jul 3, 2015
59,909
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#59
posthuman said:
well the Torah couples nakedness with shame. so it's natural we understand that they were ashamed and afraid. and this is the feeling also, when you know you have let someone down whom you love, and it is time to face them, and confess to it.
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“I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid.” Scripture explicitly states he
was afraid, and it is natural enough for us to assume they felt ashamed of their nakedness given that they
sought to cover it, whereas before eating the forbidden fruit, they felt no shame toward their nakedness...
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#60
Jul 31, 2013
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#60
Magenta said:
“I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid.” Scripture explicitly states he
was afraid, and it is natural enough for us to assume they felt ashamed of their nakedness given that they
sought to cover it, whereas before eating the forbidden fruit, they felt no shame toward their nakedness...
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did they really think God couldn't see their sin if they had a fig leaf moomoo lol

why do we think this makes sense? it doesn't.

i suspect the tree was a fig tree :coffee:
 
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