Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

You are failing to understand what the following means.





He was always being God in hypostatic union. (Soul and Deity)
But, to become as a man?
He needed to deny Himself of His right to function in His powers of Deity.



Just because He was God incarnate?
That does not mean He functioned in the power of God when choosing to make himself be as a man.
For he chose for His soul to only experience what its like to be a man. His Deity went into neutral in
reference to influencing nor empowering His humanity. He did it, making Himself to function as a sinless man.


For he chose for His soul to only experience what its like to be a man.
A sinless man. He laid down his life as God, and maintained the status of being humanity in power.

Some fail to realize.. If He functioned as God in power while making Himself be as a man?
The following verse would not be true.



Why must those who believe he functioned as God be untrue?


Figure it out for yourself.
If God can not be tempted?
How was Jesus functioning while He was on earth?
As God? Impossible! God can not be tempted!
Or, as a man? Yes... But, without sinning.




grace and peace ..........

Honestly, I've never encountered this extreme of an anti-choice point of view and such an inability to recognize choices being stated as proof there are no choices.

It dismantles the entire structure and concept of volitional commands.

With that said, I do recognize that there comes a point where what I'll just call for now the flow of life - the outworking of Christ in us - becomes more abundant. I'll use a description of maturity to explain what I mean:

Paraphrased points from Heb. 5:13-14

• The Infant/Child Christian: has a lack of knowledge and capacity - is unlearned and unskilled in the Word of Righteousness.
• Mature Christian: has the faculties/capacities for discernment that have undergone discipline/have been trained (gymnazō) for the ability to differentiate/distinguish and evaluate both good and bad/evil
  • In contrast to the infant - the mature are skilled and learned in the Word of Righteousness.

This is a simple concept our gym & sports oriented society should easily grasp:

• The beginner has little skill or discipline - little knowledge and capacity.
• The mature has been trained and disciplined and has learned and skilled faculties
• This is gym language
• The more we become trained, the better we get and the easier is the task
• One of the fascinating things about repetition training is how something can become habitual and easy. The pros make things look easy.
• In the maturity of the faculties, differentiating between good and evil becomes easier, more natural. From these trained faculties, our decisions / choices become much easier. We are thinking and doing more like Christ, conformed more to His likeness.

Conceptually it's not that difficult to understand. It's a concept that is mirrored in our everyday life. I'm sure someone could improve on my explanation, but, again, we have the guidance and wording of the Word to keep us in check.

Simple.

Without faith in what? What does the context say? Heb. 11:1-10

Cameron143 said:
How are you going to imitate God apart from God living in and through you? You can imitate God? How? Like the way you show disdain for people? Is that walking in the Spirit?

PaulThomson said:
How would you answer this? - How does a child imitate her parents without the parents living in and through the child. Do you really believe a child can imitate her parents?

You mocked the idea that someone could imitate God without God living through them. I asked you to answer the question, "How does a child imitate her parents without the parents living in and through the child?"

You gave no answer. You just allowed you guidance system to run automatically and uncritically and to say whatever it felt like saying, unconnected to the question asked.

It's very simple and very clear that the reality of desiring above all and choosing to do the will of God is what this is all about. It was not done in the first Adam. It was done perfectly in the second Adam. The perfection in Christ's willful actions - His perfect volitional obedience = His perfect Faith in and Love for our Father and for us is our model. Learning and freely making choices to do what pleases God is really the point of all of this. It's at the heart of living in Love for Him and for one another. It's being conformed to God's perfect Son.

Stripping human will out of the equation is horrendous according to the Text I study.

Your explanation of your process of choosing to believe was interesting. Thanks for explaining it. Having read you for awhile now, I doubt you'd say that God did not draw you to His Son and did not provide you with and ultimately teach you the information that made sense to you as the best choice. It seems He even assisted you to make the final choice.

By now there are probably several who have charged you with heresy and works salvation. I'm a bit behind. I guess I'll see.

This may sound controversial at first, but I would say that even those who have not accepted Christ and do not have Christ Jesus within them are acceptable - i.e. able to be accepted - and will be accepted, if they come to God with faith in God.

Do you mean - No one walking in the Spirit insists on his own preferences, but is subjecting his choices to the choices of the Holy Spirit. Trusting God...walking by faith... is a choice... to lean not on your own understanding, but in all your ways to acknowledge Him...to accept the choices of the Holy Spirit as better than your own preferences when those two conflict ?

You are choosing to keep following. If you then choose to stop following, and you choose to stop doing as you are told, you are no longer being led.

PaulThomson said:
When I am being led by someone, my attention is constantly attracted to things around me, and I need to keep choosing to follow the person leading me.

So, do you believe one cannot be tempted, or notice anything but God, if one is walking in the Spirit?

So, your previous statement is not correct.

Cameron143 said:
Sheep are followers, and not deciders. They do the bidding of the Shepherd.

My friend has bought a great washing machine, and she has gifted me a new washing machine of the same model and it's user manual. I have read the gifted manual, and in giving me the manual she has given me her faith in my new machine. Is the woman doing my believing for me? Did she give me an exact replica of her own faith, or did she give me a similar faith to her own?

Yielding ourselves is a choice.

Which is a choice.

Parents train a child to be competent.

A choice.

A choice.

So we do make choices. Amazing.

Try the phrase "informed consent." It was coined for a reason.

The informed choice is what God Consciousness per Romans 1 is all about.

The informed choice about Jesus = Christ is what the Gospel is all about. The information provided by God is what is believed. God is the first mover and primary in all things. He leads. We follow having chosen to do so.

God is raising His children to be competent choosers to both will and DO all of His will. That's the renewal of the mind. That's maturity. Thinking with the mind of Christ and choosing ultimately quite naturally to speak and to act accordingly.

Try to write any of this with words that don't denote choice.

Actually, we know walking in Spirit is commanded and is a choice. Alternatively, we know that sin is a choice to do the opposite of walking in the Spirit. Do you believe sin is a choice? Probably not since walking in Spirit as commanded is not a choice. Do you accept responsibility for anything?

Truth mixed with error = the TULIP analogy. Twisting the bible to fit the concepts.

Especially the error of Limited Atonement.

Agreed. It may not seem like it but I'm constantly watching for those who will engage in actual Scripture and apply their minds and energy to understanding its meaning.

I know all this circular debating is a part of the reality, but it's not an enjoyable process.

I had a languages professor who initiated the common process of going through commentaries. I was auditing so had a side discussion with him explaining that I had little interest in that path. I understood it but didn't like being clouded with a multitude of opinions and would rather refer to some as I determined the need or desire.

He ended up telling me he understood, and confided in me that for him the process had become one of reading them mostly to see what not to think.

These forums are kind of the same thing. There are definitely some much appreciated bright spots, but much of the content is what not to think and how not to assist each other to get to the truth. It always goes back to what does the Word actually say and mean. Why so many choose not to actually discuss Scripture in as much depth as we can reach is an obvious tactic and practice revealing many problems.

We are unable to do good without God. But I'm fairly sure that everyone has felt guilt before.

Guilt is the holy Spirit working on our hearts. We would not feel it without the goodness of God.
If everyone has felt guilt, everyone is a priority for salvation. He wouldn't waste His time on the unelected. God is trying to save all.

What we do (our choice) will make the difference.

I agree
When the Spirit is in us or we are walking in the Spirit we are going to do what is righteous.

But who chooses... do we have choice. ??

Can I choose to follow my flesh rather then the Spirit.

I can choose which way I want to walk. The Spirit does all the good in us and we can not do anything good without the Spirit. But the gift is there for all.

Gal 5:16-25
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. .
....24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

I'm continually being led having first made the informed choice to be led and to follow. Then I find myself constantly having to make decisions and choosing to continue being led and not be deceived and not to stray.

Someone else is not making choices for us. That Someone is teaching and training and disciplining us to think with a mind that knows truth and righteousness and wills and does His will with the capacities He provides.

Study the adulthood of the New Man in Christ. The sheep analogy is one of several that must be harmonized. Men aren't sheep. Mature/Spiritual men aren't infants. Sheep don't put on the full armor of God as battle array. Sheep don't think and reason with the mind of Christ. Jesus is not just the Great Shepherd. Jesus is also the Great High Priest, the King of kings and Lord of lords, the Prophet greater than Moses and all the things the various names for God signify. God is our Father - the Father of a humanity.

There are many lessons in our Text and in life. Look at all of them.

Praying as commanded. Thus ultimately done in loving obedience by choice.

Intimate relationship is entered into by choice and maintained by choosing to be constantly vigilant using the tools and gifts we've been given and that have been developed within us to do so, while the One we're in intimate relationship with is doing the same with the inherent perfection that is His essence as He trains and develops us into being His mature intimate sons.

Stated and rejected previously. A gross misunderstanding of the reality. While walking in Spirit I'm led to choose not to proceed with the rest of your paragraph.

I John

Chapter 3
1~~Concentrate on how great a love {complex}
the Father has given to us
{Royal Family of God}
that we should be designated students/children of God!

And we are!
{students of God under divine authority and training}

Therefore, the world {cosmic system}
does not understand us
because it {the world/cosmic system}
did not understand Him.
{Jesus Christ on earth in the incarnation}

2~~Beloved {Royal Family}
we are now students/children of God,
and what we will be
{in phase III - Eternity Future}
has not yet been revealed.

We know, however,
that if He should appear
- maybe He will, maybe He will not {in our lifetime} -
we shall be like Him
{not equal, but similar}
because we shall see Him
{resurrected Christ}
just as He is.

{Purity verses Lawlessness - Verses 3-4}
3~~And, everyone {mature believers}
who keeps on having
this hope in him . . . purifies himself
just as He
{that Unique Person of the Universe - Humanity of Jesus Christ}
is pure.

{Note: This verse is indicating that just as Jesus did NOT sin in the prototype Divine Dynasphere,
no one can sin while residing IN the Divine Dynasphere.}

4~~Everyone {believer}
who commits/does sin
also produces/does lawlessness.
{steps out of the Divine Dynasphere (DD) into the Cosmic System}

In fact, sin IS lawlessness.

5~~Indeed you know that
He {Christ} was revealed {1st Advent} . . .
in order that He might carry our sins . . .
and, in fact, sin is not in Him.
{He remained in the Divine Dynasphere}

6~~When anyone
{positive believer}
resides in It
{neuter gender - the Divine Dynasphere},
he is not sinning.

When anyone sins
{no rebound/residence in the Cosmic System} . . .
he {believer still in view here}
has not seen Him {Christ}
nor does he come to know Him.
{no Occupation with Christ}

{Note: This is a 'Key Phrase'! We all sin, but when we are in the Divine Dynasphere we are Not Sinning.
When we sin we immediately move to the cosmic system and 'live by the flesh' and 'not by the Spirit'.}

7~~My dear children/students
{John's non-resident congregation},
let no one deceive you.

When anyone performs righteousness
{function inside the Divine Dynasphere},
he is honorable . . .
just as HE {Christ} keeps on being honorable.

8~~When anyone
{a believer in view}
commits/does a sin . . .
he has become an agent of the devil/accuser/slanderer
because the devil has sinned from the beginning.

For this reason the Son of God appeared/revealed
that He might destroy/void/nullify
the works of the devil.

9~~And at the moment when anyone
is born from God {salvation on},
he is not sinning
{at the point of entering the Divine Dynasphere (DD)}
because His seed
{God the Holy Spirit}
keeps residing in it {the DD}.

Furthermore, he is not able to sin {inside the DD},
because he has been born from God.

{Note: At the moment of salvation you are not able to sin because you are in the Divine Dynasphere.
When from your own volition you decide to sin, you immediately are in the Cosmic System.}

10~~By this, students of God
{believers Walking in the DD}
and disciples of the devil
{believers in the cosmic system}
are manifest/apparent/obvious.

Anyone who does not manufacture integrity/righteousness/dikaiosune
and anyone who does not love his fellow believer . . .
is not from God.
{a believer but outside the DD}

Not in that post. I've initiated the conversation about the meaning of "free" a few times but could not get too far with it. So, I'll see what you've got to say. I'll also look to see if you responded at all to what that post was about. I'll be flowing freely from paragraph to paragraph saying what comes to mind.


Well, I wouldn't ask, because I agree that the concept does have limitations. I also recall saying this to another poster who as I recall was saying there are no limitations to freedom.

I can see the set-up coming re: "nature."

As I said, the set-up.

We've already gone through this several times. Unregenerate man can in fact choose to accept God based upon the General Revelation that God reveals in him. This man under sin can not only choose to accept or reject this spiritual knowledge, but is held responsible for his choice.

Thus you are defining freedom in your own limited sense based upon your erroneous view of what God has left unregenerate man under in not only able to do but responsible to do. IOW, you are placing limitations on freedom that are not biblical. God has left unregenerate man with the freedom and ability to choose to accept or to reject Him based upon the spiritual information God has provided to him and made certain he knows.

Freedom from evil is another discussion.

Your premise as I see it is incorrect. You're inserting a definition of "free" that is not applicable to unregenerate man who is not free from evil but is free to choose to accept or reject God pursuant to the General Revelation God has made certain he has. So, now you're trying to prove an incorrect premise.

While we're here, since I'm totally opposed to the theory that men do not choose and are not free to choose within the limits of freedom God has created and implemented, I do not find your rhetorical questions of interest. I do think they are good questions for some others participating in this thread.

The context that many do not seem to pay attention to, especially the world that often quotes it as a famous saying by at best a wise man, is freedom from sin for His disciples who [choose to and do] remain in His Word.

To stay on track, this does not prove your erroneous premise that unregenerate man has no freedom to choose to accept or reject divine revelation God has made certain he knows.

Again, for [true] abiding disciples who [choose to and do] remain in His Word, they will be free from sin and and remain in His house forever as sons.

To stay on track, this does not prove your erroneous premise that unregenerate man has no freedom to choose to accept or reject divine revelation God has made certain he knows.

And you have posited this before and continue to neglect the fact that there were people in slavery in Egypt that had chosen to believe in God and to maintain that belief in God and to do what they believed God who had been absent for generations would have them do. At some point(s) they even called out and He heard them.

This theory that unregenerate man cannot choose to believe in God who has made certain that all men know certain spiritual information about Him and are free and responsible to accept Him and be thankful to Him is completely empty and opposed to the Biblical Text. You are taking a theory back into Scripture and negating facts vividly and clearly presented.

In conclusion, the erroneous premise is carried though to reach a conclusion that is not applicable to the real argument.

While spiritually dead unregenerate man under sin is not free from sin, such man is still free in the sense of having not only the ability but the resultant responsibility unto God to choose to accept the revelation of God that God in all His undefeatable glory has made certain that such man knows. Man is not only free to accept this divine revelation about God, but conversely free to reject it and thereby choosing to reject God. Since man is free to choose to accept or to reject God, man will bear the responsibility of the choice he has freely made and he will have no excuse for choosing wrongly.

If we want to define freedom, then we must define it within the discussion we are actually having.