Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

[Rufus]

Discussing the Free Will of man

First mentioned - Greek Haireō: to choose

Haireō: Defining it

Haireō: NC Scriptures:

Search of the New Covenant Scriptures (only NC for now) for Greek haireō and some observations about man’s ability to choose:

NKJ Phil. 1:22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell.

• A little context:
  • Phil. 1:21-25 NKJ 21 For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. 23 For I am hard pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. 24 Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you. 25 And being confident of this, I know that I shall remain and continue with you all for your progress and joy of faith,
• Some observations:
  • Paul is speaking of making a choice:
    • A choice between living here in flesh or dying and departing to be with Christ.
    • He says he is hard-pressed between the 2 choices
    • He says he has a desire to be with Christ and says it is far better than living here in flesh.
    • He then decides that remaining here in flesh is more needful for his audience than is his personal desire to die and depart.
    • He says he has been and is convinced and has known and knows that he will remain and continue with his audience for their progress and joy of the faith
• A summary depiction:
  • Have information > have choices > struggle of desire vs. need > convinced & know > choice
• Comments & Thoughts:
  • The concept of Free Will is mostly a philosophical discussion spanning millennia.
  • There's not much use discussing it if the ones having the discussion are not willing to define what they mean by Free Will
  • There are some who simply say there is no such thing as Free Will but who will not define what they mean by it and depart the conversation.
  • There are some who say there is no such thing as Free Will, do define it to some degree, then depart the conversation when disagreed with or questioned.
  • It seems absurd to posit that men do not make choices.
  • Does unregenerate man make the choice to accept or reject the Gospel of Jesus Christ?
    • Some say, Yes. Some say, No.
  • What I see in how Paul speaks above about choosing:
    • It seems pretty simple and straight forward.
    • It's a specific instance when he was struggling between 2 choices.
    • It seems to match my experiential mental processes for as long as I can recall making choices - IOW nearly all my life.
    • It doesn't tell us about a choice in accepting or rejecting the Gospel, but the process certainly seems to fit what some say is the process of coming to faith in Jesus Christ once one has heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ and this has information.
    • It does show us Paul thinks it quite natural to discuss choosing in words and concepts easily recognizable and understandable to us.
    • With the previously linked work defining haireō, we can see how this middle voice verb works in that Paul is choosing from some inclusion of self-interest, which in this case looks to be self-sacrifice as a son of God.
    • Is Paul speaking of Free Will?
      • Some will likely say, Yes.
      • Some will likely say, No.
      • Will anybody define their terminology and explain their answer?

You haven't really defined "free" either. What do you mean when you say that man's will is "free"? That the will is autonomous? Or that a will cannot be free unless it has the power to make opposing moral choices -- to choose between good or evil, for example?

Or could the will be something far more profound than that? God is a free moral agent, yet his will is severely restricted morally. How is this so, you might ask? Answer: I posit that God's will is perfectly free FROM evil, corruption and darkness since His nature is holy, righteous, good and light; therefore, His will is perfectly free TO always make moral choices that accord just as perfectly with his nature; and this is why he cannot lie, cannot deny himself, cannot be tempted, etc.

Sadly, the inverse is true of fallen man. While man is also a free moral agent, his will is imperfect in every respect since he is free FROM holiness, righteousness and goodness ; for man's nature is evil, profane and darkness itself; therefore, his will is free TO only make moral choices that accord with his evil nature, and this is the reason why man cannot not sin. He cannot not sin because his will is in bondage to his sin nature. For any free moral agent to be truly free in the biblical sense, he must be exactly like God, i.e. free FROM free Evil so that he is free to do Good always. Any man in Adam, therefore, is a type of God by contrast just as Adam himself is type of Christ by contrast.

My biblical proof for my premise is threefold. First, in eternity God's glorified saints will be totally free from the presence of sin from within and without, which will make all his saints perfectly free to love and obey and glorify God forever and ever. Yet, are we to suppose that we'll become something less than free moral agents, unlike our Creator and Redeemer? Will we become programmed robots because we've been set from evil and won't be able to sin?

Secondly, an important question must be asked about Truth: What did Jesus mean when he said, "...and the truth shall set you free" (Jn 8:32)? Free from and/or to do what?

Thirdly, a very similar question must be asked about what Jesus said about himself: "If the Son shall set you free, you shall be free indeed" (Jn 8:36). Again, the Son sets his disciples free from and/or to do what?

For me the answer is simple and as plain as day: The Truth and the Son (just like God and Moses with he ancient Hebrews in Egypt)
both set their people free FROM bondage so that they and we would be truly free TO worship God in Spirit and in Truth. We shouldn't forget that when the Hebrews were enslaved to Pharaoh for 400+ years they basically became just like the king's own people (seed): pagan idol worshipers.

In conclusion: TRUE spiritual/moral freedom or liberty consists of freedom from all evil, from within and without, which is the only way we can be free to always make holy, righteous and good choices in our thoughts, words and deeds. Anything less than what I have just said is not freedom in the biblical and spiritual sense. In fact, anything less amounts to bondage!

 

[PaulThomson]

Have you ever been led? When you are led, you aren't making choices. Someone else is making the choices for you. And so long as you continue to do as they say, you are being led. The moment you stop doing as you are told, you are no longer being led by someone else and have gone your own way. You are leading yourself.

When I am being led by someone, my attention is constantly attracted to things around me, and I need to keep choosing to follow the person leading me.

 

[PaulThomson]

You haven't really defined "free" either.

What "free" means in "free will" depends on what "will" means. Only after defining "will" is it possible to define what a "free will" is.

What is your working definition of "the will" as it is used in scripture?

 

[Rufus]

Me too.

But you will be disagreed with for saying, "We can choose to go the power that can free us and save us." (it looks like you might have missed a word there).

How prophetic of you <g>. If we could choose under our own steam (power), then why is it necessary for the Father to draw his elect to his Son?

 

[PaulThomson]

Sheep are followers, and not deciders. They do the bidding of the Shepherd.

Then how do sheep get lost?

 

[Cameron143]

That simply is a drastic misstatement as I read and understand our life in Christ in Spirit. It may be the most drastic misstatement I've read here.

Our daily life is made up of a multitude of thoughts, decisions, choices and we are in the process of learning and being trained to take every thought captive to the obedience of Christ as our minds are being renewed in Christ in Spirit to conform to the mind of Christ who always did what He saw our Father do and always said what He heard our Father say.

Virtually every thought that comes through our head is a challenge to accept it or reject it by choice based upon the leading and guiding of the Spirit and the mind of Christ that has been developed in us. The more mature in Christ in Spirit that we become, the more natural it is to think and do as He does in imitation of Him as we're commanded to do.

Obedience is a choice and an ongoing multitude of choices we make every day. And apart from that faithful obedience, faith lacks, as does love for God and for one another as commanded.



Our acceptance of His choices is not a choice we make? My goodness...

What denominational tradition have you been taught under for your 31 years? It sounds passive to an extreme.

There is a passive sense involved here, but many who have studied it conclude it has to be explained as an active passive. We willfully submit continuously. Just like our Lord did.

So let me ask you, you get up go out and start your car, but the battery is dead. What do you do?

 

[Rufus]

When I am being led by someone, my attention is constantly attracted to things around me, and I need to keep choosing to follow the person leading me.

Really short attention span, heh? How long have you been suffering from ADD?

 

[Rufus]

Perhaps the reason for those not chosen is that they would never want to be chosen by the Father, no matter what. Their father is the devil (Satan).

That's actually a very good spiritual insight. There is a lot of truth in that. But by the same token, where would any of the elect be if it weren't for God's free gift of grace and faith?

 

[Cameron143]

When I am being led by someone, my attention is constantly attracted to things around me, and I need to keep choosing to follow the person leading me.

Then you aren't in the Spirit. You are walking by sight.

 

[Rufus]

It's interesting when we can see more and more how some ignore what Scripture says, insert their own thinking in it's place and walk away from explaining themselves. It's also quite the thing when some don't actually post Scripture but make partial statements from Scripture and leave off the rest in an effort to chide others who actually read and work in Scripture.

NKJ Galatians 2:20 "I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

• I don't like this translation but the parts I've highlighted are sufficient to make the point that this is in fact a Christian who is learning to live in Christ in Spirit and to do his part in the relationship we have with our Lord. There is an interplay of Him living in us and us living by His faith. Why people want to negate what the Text clearly says and use it wrongly and in part to chide others is really a problem.

NKJ 1 Corinthians 11:1 Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ. And NKJ Ephesians 5:1 Therefore be imitators of God as dear children.

• This actually is ultimately imitating Jesus Christ and our Father as His beloved children. And, actually, these are both commands made to the volition = choice of Christians.

Faith, choice, obedience sure sounds like our involvement in Christ in Spirit under grace to me.

What are you trying to sell us?

But whose faith is it? From whence come Paul's faith? Could it possibly be the gift of faith that is freely gifted to God's elect and that comes through Christ?

 

[Rufus]

Upon a second reading of Philippians 1:21-25, as well as some scattered study, I don't believe Paul is discussing free will in this text—absolutely not.

In my opinion, Paul is essentially saying … If I live, I will teach Christ and bear fruit; and if I die, I will be with Christ and that would be gain.

Paul wasn’t trying to make a choice as he was totally aware of his mission since, on the way to Damascus, Jesus gave him some pretty clear instructions, right? Paul was also a tough guy. He was once killed (see 2 Corinthians 12:1-4 that describes his journey to the third heaven following his stoning). Paul endured a great deal of abuse in prison, including beatings, stoneings, whippings, shipwrecks, mob abuse, and a great deal of ridicule. So here is Paul's reflection, I think—but if I have to continue living in this physical body, I'm not sure which would be preferable when considering the differences between the two. It’s easy to understand Paul's thoughts regarding life and death, especially since he had experienced a glimpse of the third heaven. He understood that when his earthly ministry came to an end, he would immediately be with the Lord. …but he also knew that while he was still alive, the gospel had to be preached.

—Selah

Exactly right!? Whether he lived or died was not his choice to make in the first place!

 

[Rufus]

Only the elect ultimately choose to trust/obey God.

And I suspect that might have something to do with the new heart God promised to give to his New Covenant people! A new heart would necessarily entail renewed minds, emotions, wills and consciences -- all of which would make us His new creation.

 

[Rufus]

What "free" means in "free will" depends on what "will" means. Only after defining "will" is it possible to define what a "free will" is.

What is your working definition of "the will" as it is used in scripture?

So, you don't know what "will" means? But you did think you knew what "free" means? Isn't the "will" the faculty that is instrumental in making choices, decisions?

 

[Cameron143]

Then how do sheep get lost?

They take their eyes off the Shepherd and stop listening to His voice. They go their own way.

 

[Rufus]

Brother Rufus, In the millennium, which begins at the second advent of Jesus Christ, we won’t have flesh bodies any longer. We’ll be in our spiritual bodies, impervious to age or disease.

And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed — in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."

- 1 Corinthians 15:49-54

But the resurrection doesn't occur until the END of the age. The millennium is not the end! It's 1,000 years before all things are restored (new heavens, new earth, new bodies, etc.)

 

[Rufus]

Jesus said forgive THEM.
Technically speaking, every human being put Him on the Cross [past-present-future] at that point in time.

But he didn't say to forgive each and every one of them! Furthermore, the early chapters of Acts proves that the Father heard Jesus'[ prayer since thousands of JEWS came to believe on their Messiah after Pentecost arrived. But thousands are not all the Jews!

Also, the reason that Jesus didn't pray for the world is because his kingdom is not OF this world. But Satan's kingdom is!

 

[Rufus]

Believers get all tripped up because they see something as impossible for an omniscient God.

The key to God creating all men without knowing how they would believe is to be found in the state of mind Jesus became when He came to earth. He came not as God. But as a man....

That ability of the Son to make himself to be as a man holds the keys to the mystery as to why everyone and everything created had to be created through the Son. For the Son (as demonstrated by Jesus) was capable of stepping outside of his power of omniscience to make himself be as a man.

In other words? When Jesus was used of God to create all men? Jesus placing himself outside of omniscience, could mentally create all souls with only the desire that once they were created, all would want to love God. Plain and simple.

That is why all of use had to be created THROUGH him! In doing so, it avoided God's omniscience from jamming up the works, having to create some not to believe......

Besides your reply being a non sequitur to what I posted, you are absolutely wrong about Jesus not coming as God incarnate at his first advent. How could he unequivocally have claimed to be the Son of God, and the Father himself refer to him as his Son in whom he is well pleased, if Jesus had parked his divinity in God only knows where? Or do you think that Jesus was just God's adopted Son...like any of God's saints?

 

[selahsays]

But the resurrection doesn't occur until the END of the age. The millennium is not the end! It's 1,000 years before all things are restored (new heavens, new earth, new bodies, etc.)

Yes, in the New Jerusalem (Eternity), everything will be perfect. This will transpire after the First Resurrection and after the 1,000-year Millennium and after the Great White Throne Judgment.

Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. "And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away." Then He who sat on the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new." And He said to me, "Write, for these words are true and faithful." And He said to me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. "He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.

- Revelation 21:1-7
________________

"Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them, and it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; I will establish them and multiply them, and I will set My sanctuary in their midst forevermore. "My tabernacle also shall be with them; indeed I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

- Ezekiel 37:26-27

 

[Rufus]

Mr. Studier, since, due to the temporary shut down and the likely demise of innocent posts, I'm not able to pick up from our last contact.

You did ask me specifically, however, to clarify a statement I made about A&E regarding their spiritual status after the Fall. As I recall I returned a short reply, confirming what you suspected: God saved Eve and passed over Adam. If you're of the mind, you can read my main 15-pt argument in my 3044 and then I made an addendum later in 3567, which lists various in which Adam is a type of Satan. Also, as an aside, Eve is a type of the Bride of Christ and you can find that argument easily enough online if so disposed.

 

[Rufus]

Yes, in the New Jerusalem (Eternity), everything will be perfect. This will transpire after the First Resurrection and after the 1,000-year Millennium and after the Great White Throne Judgment.

Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. "And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away." Then He who sat on the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new." And He said to me, "Write, for these words are true and faithful." And He said to me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. "He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.

- Revelation 21:1-7
________________

"Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them, and it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; I will establish them and multiply them, and I will set My sanctuary in their midst forevermore. "My tabernacle also shall be with them; indeed I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

- Ezekiel 37:26-27

And your point to Rev 21 is???