Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

PaulThomson said:

How would you answer this? - How does a child imitate her parents without the parents living in and through the child. Do you really believe a child can imitate her parents?

People imitate what they admire in others. A person who admires the character snd example of Christ can certainly try to imitate Christ. And God would be willing to help them do so, even if they do not yet own so-called orthodox Christian doctrines about God. Do you think God would hinder people who want to imitate Christ from imitating Him to some degree.

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God isn't interested in what you can do apart from Him. Your best efforts are falling short of the goal. And dependency upon Him is what faith is all about. He's not looking for you to try your best. He's looking for people who humble themselves and take His yoke upon them.

The Christian life isn't about doing things primarily, although one will do things. It is primarily about being conformed to the image of Christ. We can't do this, but God can. And He does so as we humble ourselves and walk after Him.
Sheep are followers, and not deciders. They do the bidding of the Shepherd. Being a Christian is about a life entangled with Christ. It's in Him that we live, and move, and have our being. We learn to hear His voice and move through life as He directs. That's what walking in the Spirit is. It's not that people can't choose as they please. It's that choosing as you please is rebellion. Following as He pleases is obedience. People who choose for themselves are not following.

Cameron143 said:

How are you going to imitate God apart from God living in and through you? You can imitate God? How? Like the way you show disdain for people? Is that walking in the Spirit?

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We can't. But we are commanded to do things, such as walk in Spirit, and many other things, in order to have His leading, guiding, teaching, training taking place in us as He provides His energeō in us so we can both desire and do His good pleasure.

You've oddly and clearly stated that Paul was just motivating Christian you stripped out the doing part.

Yes, confronting a Christian who is repeatedly and vividly altering Scripture in order to spread false teaching can be done - and I would argue is to be done - in Christ in Spirit.

studier said:

If walking in Spirit, have we made the choice to walk in Spirit as we are commanded to do?

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For a Christian yes. But having made the choice to do so, making any other choices is not walking in the Spirit. You would then be living by sight and not by faith. Jesus taught us how live. The world lives consumed by worldly concerns. We are to seek His kingdom and His righteousness, knowing that He will take care of all the rest. This is part of the rest we find in Christ.
You seem to want to be in control of your own life. You have to lose your life to find real life...the life imparted to us as we are yoked to Christ. This is a relationship in which we surrender all our desires to His. It doesn't work any other way.
I said long ago in this discussion that few people really know what it is to walk in the Spirit. I said that because very few people want to give up their ability to choose. But it is only in giving up our choices...dying to self...that we find real life. It is the only way for the life and power of Christ to be made manifest to and in an individual.
So you and others can cling to your own choices. But you do so to your own peril.

studier said:

If walking in Spirit, have we made the choice to walk in Spirit as we are commanded to do?

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Not unless God has given us a new heart and enabled us to understand His desires. Only then, can we make choices which are pleasing to Him!

studier said:

Keep an eye out for the comments about Augustine and where some of our thinking on the matter may have originated.

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I think the commandment "Thou shall not murder" covers suicide.

I think Paul was simply grappling with his many afflictions and what may still be ahead of him.
I cannot for one moment see Paul committing such a selfish act given how committed he was to spreading the Gospel.

And while, I very much agree that the culture and how people spoke at that time is essential to truly understanding scripture and when people take idiomatic expressions and take the truth in the expression to mean something literal they make a mess of scripture.

Paul was schooled in the law, I am sure he knew murder was wrong and his day and time of death was in God's hands not his.

Interesting read, I think Augustine is to blame for a lot but I highly doubt he was the the one to make suicide a sin.
Not sure if this is something you are dogmatic about but we disagree here.

TMS said:

The Calvinistic view is that the covering of justification makes us acceptable in God’s sight even if we do continue willfully sinning.

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No, it is Christ Jesus within us that makes us acceptable.

We now have an unblemished record >>> justified.

TMS said:

1Jn 3:7-9
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

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It is always this verse, sigh.

John is addressing the fact the Spirit of Jesus within us cannot sin, those who do not have the Spirit of Jesus within them still sin.

HeIsHere said:

No, it is Christ Jesus within us that makes us acceptable.
We now have an unblemished record >>> justified.

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I agree!
Leviticus 20:26 ESV
You shall be holy to me, for I the Lord am holy and have separated you from the peoples, that you should be mine. (set aside)
He has set us aside that we should be His! We are not yet perfected, but will be when He comes!

BillyBob said:

Not unless God has given us a new heart and enabled us to understand His desires. Only then, can we make choices which are pleasing to Him!

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The Christian life is not meant to be a life of choices. It is meant to be a life of engagement with God as pictured in John 14 and amplified in John 15. People should read Psalm 23 and compare what sheep decide and what the Shepherd provides. He makes, He leads, He restores, He leads, He comforts, He prepares, He annoints. All I see the sheep doing is enjoying His provision.
God hasn't asked us to make choices. He's asked us to accept the choices He makes. Proverbs 3:5-6 teaches us that trust in God is actually not to lean on our ability to choose, but to acknowledge our dependency upon Him, and He will direct our steps.
People are free to make choices independently of God. They cannot do so in faith.

selahsays said:

Upon a second reading of Philippians 1:21-25, as well as some scattered study, I don't believe Paul is discussing free will in this text—absolutely not.

In my opinion, Paul is essentially saying … If I live, I will teach Christ and bear fruit; and if I die, I will be with Christ and that would be gain.

Paul wasn’t trying to make a choice as he was totally aware of his mission since, on the way to Damascus, Jesus gave him some pretty clear instructions, right? Paul was also a tough guy. He was once killed (see 2 Corinthians 12:1-4 that describes his journey to the third heaven following his stoning). Paul endured a great deal of abuse in prison, including beatings, stoneings, whippings, shipwrecks, mob abuse, and a great deal of ridicule. So here is Paul's reflection, I think—but if I have to continue living in this physical body, I'm not sure which would be preferable when considering the differences between the two. It’s easy to understand Paul's thoughts regarding life and death, especially since he had experienced a glimpse of the third heaven. He understood that when his earthly ministry came to an end, he would immediately be with the Lord. …but he also knew that while he was still alive, the gospel had to be preached.

—Selah

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Firstly, thank you for noting my question. Next, thank you also for thinking this through and for putting the effort into explaining your thoughts. It's very refreshing to read.

Here are a few more observations and thoughts in response:

• I like how you've integrated the living, teaching Christ, bearing fruit vs. the dying, being with Christ, gain statements. I also see Paul thinking in such a way.
• I'd modify or elaborate this just a bit in attempting to maybe stay a bit tighter to the language.
• I also do see Paul talking about a legitimate choice, which I'll try to explain:
  • Firstly, Paul has been convinced for some time that he will remain and continue in flesh for the Philippian Christians' progress and joy of the faith 1:25.
  • Paul is in prison and is also resolved that Christ will be magnified in his body, whether 1:20:
    • By life
      • For to live [is] Christ
        • To live in flesh = fruit from work
          • To remain in flesh is necessary for you
    • By death
      • For to die [is] Profit
        • He has the desire to depart and be together with Christ
          • This is very much better than remaining in flesh & working to produce fruit
    • (Which Paul will choose, he does not know, and he is distressed between the two choices)
• So, Paul is not contemplating suicide and I find it interesting how our minds go there pretty quickly and how this becomes the focus to promote or discredit free will.
• With that said, I do see Paul talking to a culture that since at least the time of Socrates had thought about the nobility of taking ones own life under certain circumstances.
  • The article I linked provides some research on such things.
• There is also much work being done in our time on better understanding Paul's writings. One of the things being discussed is how brilliant was Paul and knowledgeable having been raised and educated in both the Hebrew and Greek/Roman cultures and how versed he was in Greek philosophical rhetoric. IOW, our Lord chose the right man for the job of working to bring about the new era in Christ and the integrating of Greek and Hebrew cultures into Christ's New Body, which was no simple task.
• Additionally, Paul is in prison and living in a time of horrendous persecution from not only Jerusalem but also the Roman Empire. You and I have both noted how Paul had been treated and abused to say the least.
  • We also have Scriptures like this to show us that the death of our Lord's servants was something on their minds;
    • NKJ John 21:8-19"Most assuredly, I say to you, when you were younger, you girded yourself and walked where you wished; but when you are old, you will stretch out your hands, and another will gird you and carry you where you do not wish." 19 This He spoke, signifying by what death he would glorify God. And when He had spoken this, He said to him, "Follow Me."
  • Death is a constant threat
  • IMO all of these servants of our Lord were conscious that their decisions and choices and following the Spirit would likely lead to their death. After all, our Lord has been crucified as a criminal and they were his followers.
• My conclusion at this point:
  • When Paul says "what I will choose, I do not know"
    • He's talking about a real choice and in language his mostly Hellenistic audience would understand - a noble death.
    • He uses a future tense "will choose"
    • He knows that there will come a point where being led by the Spirit will bring him to a point of decision and he is not only struggling with it now, but knows it may be a challenge when the time comes possibly as our Lord did in the Garden before the cross.
    • We tend to view men like Paul as being so absolutely certain of everything they were doing at every moment. I don't think that's the case. I think they struggled immensely.
    • Some years later imprisoned Paul did understand his time was coming to an end:
      • 6 For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing. (2 Tim. 4:6-8 NKJ)
      • As I read him, all of his decisions and choices in walking in Spirit put him right where he was. Tradition has it that he was beheaded at some point as a Roman citizen.

The article I linked concludes that Paul was suicidal but not as some type of a woe is me I want to depart mindset. Leading up to this conclusion, it presented some very interesting information about taking one's own life per OC Scriptures, the Greek Philosophers, Josephus, etc., to try bring some cultural reality from history into the analysis of Paul's statements. We don't have to agree with opinions, but some facts are beneficial to our understanding and conclusions.

I do see our life as making choices to obey or disobey God under His grace and the capacities He gives us. One of these choices for Paul was how and when he may have to choose life or death by following the leading of the Spirit. He already knew what his preference was and he knew when he wrote Philippians that it wasn't time even though he knew what he'd like to choose.

Cameron143 said:

For a Christian yes. But having made the choice to do so, making any other choices is not walking in the Spirit

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I'm not sure what you mean here. The walk in Spirit is not a one time choice but an ongoing life of obeying the command to walk in Spirit and not grieve or suppress Him. Do we agree on this or will you explain what you mean?

Cameron143 said:

We are to seek His kingdom and His righteousness, knowing that He will take care of all the rest. This is part of the rest we find in Christ.

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What do you mean "He will take care of all the rest"? The promise given for this seeking is His providing our basic needs for living. He doesn't live our life for us and make our choices for us. Am I misunderstand you, because you seem to have this vein running through your statements that we don't have to do much.

Cameron143 said:

You seem to want to be in control of your own life. You have to lose your life to find real life...the life imparted to us as we are yoked to Christ. This is a relationship in which we surrender all our desires to His. It doesn't work any other way.

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You misread me. I want to remain attached to the Vine as I'm commanded to do because apart from Him we can do nothing. But attached to Him we have things to do in abiding, faithfully obedient relationship to Him. We have a multitude of choices to make day in and day out in order to remain in this abiding fellowship with Him and have the fruits of the Spirit produced in us so they are manifested in what we do.

Surrendering ourselves is firstly a choice and then an act and it is a constant process that we can become better and better at as we remain attached to Him and choose not to sin as He provides His capacities to us so we will and do what pleases Him. This is what Paul was getting at in Phil 1 when he speaks of the Philippians progress and joy of the faith. By the time he gets to mid Phil 2 he drives this home as a commandment to do our part based upon God doing His part.

BillyBob said:

Not unless God has given us a new heart and enabled us to understand His desires. Only then, can we make choices which are pleasing to Him!

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We can't walk in Spirit in Christ apart from being a Christian. The command to walk in Spirit is only made to Christians.

HeIsHere said:

I think the commandment "Thou shall not murder" covers suicide.

I think Paul was simply grappling with his many afflictions and what may still be ahead of him.
I cannot for one moment see Paul committing such a selfish act given how committed he was to spreading the Gospel.

And while, I very much agree that the culture and how people spoke at that time is essential to truly understanding scripture and when people take idiomatic expressions and take the truth in the expression to mean something literal they make a mess of scripture.

Paul was schooled in the law, I am sure he knew murder was wrong and his day and time of death was in God's hands not his.

Interesting read, I think Augustine is to blame for a lot but I highly doubt he was the the one to make suicide a sin.
Not sure if this is something you are dogmatic about but we disagree here.

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We probably don't disagree. I explained more in #8,790.

studier said:

We probably don't disagree. I explained more in #8,790.

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I missed the post, thank you, very helpful, yes I don't disagree.

Cameron143 said:

The Christian life is not meant to be a life of choices.

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That simply is a drastic misstatement as I read and understand our life in Christ in Spirit. It may be the most drastic misstatement I've read here.

Our daily life is made up of a multitude of thoughts, decisions, choices and we are in the process of learning and being trained to take every thought captive to the obedience of Christ as our minds are being renewed in Christ in Spirit to conform to the mind of Christ who always did what He saw our Father do and always said what He heard our Father say.

Virtually every thought that comes through our head is a challenge to accept it or reject it by choice based upon the leading and guiding of the Spirit and the mind of Christ that has been developed in us. The more mature in Christ in Spirit that we become, the more natural it is to think and do as He does in imitation of Him as we're commanded to do.

Obedience is a choice and an ongoing multitude of choices we make every day. And apart from that faithful obedience, faith lacks, as does love for God and for one another as commanded.

Cameron143 said:

God hasn't asked us to make choices. He's asked us to accept the choices He makes.

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Our acceptance of His choices is not a choice we make? My goodness...

What denominational tradition have you been taught under for your 31 years? It sounds passive to an extreme.

There is a passive sense involved here, but many who have studied it conclude it has to be explained as an active passive. We willfully submit continuously. Just like our Lord did.

HeIsHere said:

I missed the post, thank you, very helpful, yes I don't disagree.

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I knew that seeming suicide inference would provoke/irritate. I did to me.

studier said:

I'm not sure what you mean here. The walk in Spirit is not a one time choice but an ongoing life of obeying the command to walk in Spirit and not grieve or suppress Him. Do we agree on this or will you explain what you mean?

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In demonic possession one is so surrendered to some "guidance system" that one obeys it without discriminating and choosing oneself what one will do. This may account for the consistently automatic programmed responses one encounters from some people, who simply absorb indiscriminately the ideas of a system and allow those ideas to pour out of themselves with no evidence of real critical thinking and questioning of those ideas going on. Perhaps a religious spirit has built a stronghold in their mind and is channelling itself through them.

This may be why some believe that forsaking choosing, and merely flowing with their automatc thought patterns, is the same thing as walking in the Spirit. This may be why some believe it is unnecessay to spend time considering seriously any material that is not in agreement with their system, and persistently avoid rrsponding candidly to questions and ideas put to them for their thoughtful response. We may sometimes be dealing with religious spirits that have taken over a person' mind, if the person has surrendered the discriminative faculty that is supposed to choose between options, and is running on autopilot.

studier said:

We probably don't disagree. I explained more in #8,790.

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I like that some of the posters here can propose ideas as starting points to real thinking and can reasoning together amicably towards a more convincing final position, without the seed idea being immediately denounced as heretical, because it does not fit into some heretic-hunter's ruling system. I appreciate that willingness to live with the uncertainty of incomplete theories and to patiently wait for more clarity.

studier said:

I'm not sure what you mean here. The walk in Spirit is not a one time choice but an ongoing life of obeying the command to walk in Spirit and not grieve or suppress Him. Do we agree on this or will you explain what you mean?



What do you mean "He will take care of all the rest"? The promise given for this seeking is His providing our basic needs for living. He doesn't live our life for us and make our choices for us. Am I misunderstand you, because you seem to have this vein running through your statements that we don't have to do much.



You misread me. I want to remain attached to the Vine as I'm commanded to do because apart from Him we can do nothing. But attached to Him we have things to do in abiding, faithfully obedient relationship to Him. We have a multitude of choices to make day in and day out in order to remain in this abiding fellowship with Him and have the fruits of the Spirit produced in us so they are manifested in what we do.

Surrendering ourselves is firstly a choice and then an act and it is a constant process that we can become better and better at as we remain attached to Him and choose not to sin as He provides His capacities to us so we will and do what pleases Him. This is what Paul was getting at in Phil 1 when he speaks of the Philippians progress and joy of the faith. By the time he gets to mid Phil 2 he drives this home as a commandment to do our part based upon God doing His part.

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Have you ever been led? When you are led, you aren't making choices. Someone else is making the choices for you. And so long as you continue to do as they say, you are being led. The moment you stop doing as you are told, you are no longer being led by someone else and have gone your own way. You are leading yourself.

The same is true in a relationship with God. His sheep hear what He is saying and follow or do what He says. They aren't making moment by moment choices but simply watch the Shepherd and going where He goes and doing what He says.

This is only possible for someone in intimate relationship with God. Praying without ceasing is merely an ongoing conversation with God to maintain the relationship

No one walking in the Spirit is making choices, but are yielding to the choices of the Spirit. Trusting God...walking by faith...is a choice...to lean not on your own understanding, but in all your ways to acknowledge Him...to accept the choices of another...He will direct your paths. Once having made this choice to submit, the next choice that one will make is to stop submitting. Jesus never stopped. His whole life was spent yielded to God. He did always what He saw the Father doing. He offers us the same deal. Take my yoke upon you and learn of me. In other words, do things my way. Hitch yourself to me and pull in the direction I'm pulling. It's not that complicated, but it does require an intimate relationship with God. And that can only be fostered in His presence.