Perhaps the reason for those not chosen is that they would never want to be chosen by the Father, no matter what. Their father is the devil (Satan).
Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR
- Thread starter MerSee
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As you point out, there is a lot to this, but answers take the type of work you're noting above.
As for a struggle about a decision, do you think our Lord and firstborn brother struggled with choosing?
NKJ Matthew 26:42 Again, a second time, He went away and prayed, saying, "O My Father, if this cup cannot pass away from Me unless1 I drink it, Your will be done."
Honestly, taking away choice to accept or reject seems to negate what our existence is all about. Free and willing submission to our Father's will was the greatest lesson ever given.
There are also other Greek words that mean "choose" such as in this well known OT verse:
NKJ Deuteronomy 30:19 "I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live;
LXX is eklegō
GoLEMiY (my unformed substance)
Ra"U (they saw)
'eYNeYK (your eyes)
W-'aL (and in)
SiPhRK (your book)
KoLaM (all of them)
YiKTeBU (they were being written)
YoMiYM (days/daily)
YeTsaRU (They had been fashioned/ predetermined/ foreordained)
W-Lo" (and not)
"eKhaD (one)
BaHeM (with them)
You eyes saw my unformed substance and the days all of them were being written in your book, and not one among them had been predetermined.
This reads to me as God watching the baby being formed in the womb and remembering every days development as it happens, and because God has not determined what the exact growth will be in each day, He is watching with interest to observe how this unique baby changes day by day.
He is like my daughter with her new baby taking pictures and videos of every little new development.
Up one day, down the next. Paul was a human being with many struggles and beyond most of ours. He learned over time to be content even though he was jailed, whipped, beaten...
In Philippians he essentially said he was struggling with a decision. This doesn't mean he wasn't content in all his circumstances. And contentment here is nothing compared to what we will be and have. Imagine what he knew especially since he talks of seeing or visiting the third Heaven.
I'll give you an honest example from real life. At this stage I'm pretty content. But for many years I have had the same thinking Paul expressed - I would rather be at home with our Lord. My eyes have been fixed on the telos for quite some time and I can't see how anyone can be fixated on this existence compared to seeing Him as He is and finally realizing who and what we are in Him.
I will read it over and then offer my thoughts.
I will try to keep and open mind.
Keep an eye out for the comments about Augustine and where some of our thinking on the matter may have originated.
Every Christian should rather be with the Lord. But every Christian should be pleased to allow God to determine their course...Proverbs 3:5-6. Paul wasn't suicidal. He's simply expressing the depth of his love for those he has the pastoral care over.
Maybe Paul had options, like throwing himself into danger likely to get him killed early, as in casting off Agabus' warning about going to Jerusalem. And on the other hand, playing it safe and avoiding such risks. Maybe Paul decided that for the sake of continuing to help establish the church, he should not choose the Gung Ho, charge of the light brigade, approach.
Maybe you would consider doing some work for once and post a translation and tell us why it's accurate. Here are a few to get you started. We can see some translators struggling with the translation:
CJB Psalm 139:16 Your eyes could see me as an embryo, but in your book all my days were already written; my days had been shaped before any of them existed.
DBY Psalm 139:16 Thine eyes did see my unformed substance, and in thy book all my members were written; during many days were they fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.
DRA Psalm 138:16 Thy eyes did see my imperfect being, and in thy book all shall be written: days shall be formed, and no one in them.
ESV Psalm 139:16 Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.
KJV Psalm 139:16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.
LXA Psalm 139:16 Thine eyes saw my unwrought substance, and all men shall be written in thy book; they shall be formed by day, though there should for a time be no one among them.
LXE Psalm 139:16 Thine eyes saw my unwrought substance, and all men shall be written in thy book; they shall be formed by day, though there should for a time be no one among them.
NAS Psalm 139:16 Thine eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Thy book they were all written, The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them.
NET Psalm 139:16 Your eyes saw me when I was inside the womb. All the days ordained for me were recorded in your scroll before one of them came into existence.
NIV Psalm 139:16 Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.
NJB Psalm 139:16 Your eyes could see my embryo. In your book all my days were inscribed, every one that was fixed is there.
NKJ Psalm 139:16 Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed. And in Your book they all were written, The days fashioned for me, When as yet there were none of them.
NLT Psalm 139:16 You saw me before I was born. Every day of my life was recorded in your book. Every moment was laid out before a single day had passed.
WEB Psalm 139:16 Thy eyes saw my substance, yet being imperfect; and in thy book all {my members} were written, {which} in continuance were fashioned, when {as yet there was} none of them.
YLT Psalm 139:16 Mine unformed substance Thine eyes saw, And on Thy book all of them are written, The days they were formed -- And not one among them.
Here are some translation notes from the NET Bible translation showing some of the language issues:
NET Notes (Psa 139:16)
26 tn Heb "Your eyes saw my shapeless form." The Hebrew noun ) גֹּלֶםgolem( occurs only here in the OT. In later Hebrew the word refers to "a lump, a shapeless or lifeless substance," and to "unfinished matter, a vessel wanting finishing" (Jastrow 222 s.v. (גּוֹלֶם. The translation employs the dynamic rendering "when I was inside the womb" to clarify that the speaker was still in his mother's womb at the time he was "seen" by God.
27 tn Heb "and on your scroll all of them were written, [the] days [which] were formed, and [there was] not one among them." This "scroll" may be the "scroll of life" mentioned in Ps 69:28 (see the note on the word "living" there).
Honestly, your sneering and being judgmental at others doing some actual work is not impressive.
Of course not. You are holding to exhaustive divine predeterminism, and I am open theistic. But maybe looking at the text and determine what it could be saying, and keeping an open mind where there are viable options, is the mature thing to do, rather than knee-jerk reactions to interpretations that challenge our perspectives.
Paul was led by the Spirit. For him, to live was Christ living in him.
For all the talk of choice, those who walk in the Spirit are actually being moved by God. Christ is living in them and through them. They have purposefully given themselves over to the will of God...not my will, but thine be done.
Do you know what it means to live, yet not I; Christ lives in me? That's not an individual trying to imitate Christ. It is literally Christ living in and through an individual. In Him we live and move and have our being.
You might want to examine what it is to walk in the Spirit, and what is actually available to the people of God.
Wrong is wrong regardless of the explanation. Just like you believing a person can be saved apart from the gospel and apart from Christ. Or making disparaging remarks about people you have never met or had any contact with.
For all your bluster about others employing systematic theology, you have your own systematic theology by which you determine meaning.
I know plenty of Christians that think differently and are still involved in and looking forward to their lives in Christ here. I know some who want to do everything they can in Christ in Spirit and be rewarded as He promises. I'm not sure how you think you qualify to say what every Christian should think or do.
Actually Paul clearly said he was hard-pressed - distressed / absorbed - to make the decision and his clear preference was to depart and be with Christ which he says is far better than staying here in flesh. You don't seem to care much about what the Text actually says.
In the end of these verses he made the decision that the Lord wanted him here to help others grow. But, again, this doesn't mean Paul wasn't opening his heart to his readers.
As was pointed out in the article I offered to you, this was not the only time Paul spoke of such things with some comparative language:
NKJ 2 Corinthians 5:1-8 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. 6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
Your repeating "suicide" for some shock value doesn't negate the fact that these thoughts Paul expresses were obviously real and not a one time thing.
Nor does it negate anything Paul is explaining to us re: human choice, which is the real focus.
I find it worth noting that YiKaTeB-U is Piel imperfect, an incompleted action in progress. Hence were being written seems to be the meaning. Si, the idea of tthe days having been already written before the creation does not seem to fit with this form of the verb IMHO.
I also find it noteworthy that YeTsaR-U is Pual Perfect Completed form of YaTSaR, and the Pual form means to be predetermined, to be preordained. So, here it would seem to mean "were or had been predetermined", possibly negated by W-Lo' (and not).
Maybe "written in your book" is a poetic metaphor for God recording in His memory what He is keenly observing happening in the womb.
Tu quoque is another logical fallacy. Try dealing with THE TEXT AS WRITTEN.
Tu quoque is a type of ad hominem argument in which an accused person turns an allegation back on his or her accuser, thus creating a logical fallacy. In the English language, the phrase generally functions as a noun, however, it's also used attributively to modify other nouns, as in "a tu quoque argument."
Can you negate what Paul clearly says? Wouldn't it be better to explain Scripture rather than pretend it's not there?
Didn't Paul ultimately do what I highlighted above and said before re: Jesus Christ? What I've highlighted speaks of a choice.
It looks to me like you're trying to deny human choice in submitting to God's will by showing us human choice submitting to God's will.