Loss of salvation???

Elgin booked the overflow back then, into the Ramada Inn on the island. It’s changed hands, but we still take the grandkids there most every summer. They love the pool there, and it’s within walking distance of the fishing pier.

So funny, I had an aunt that used to work there in the early 80's and my wife first started housekeeping at Ramada. She still cleans a unit across 98 at the newer place with the lazy river. I hope you guys have a great vacation, and you know right where I live. Heck I've lived here my whole life.

It is the ongoing commitment from the Holy Spirit to us that keeps us saved. Not our commitment to Him.

Because a believer has the HS indwelling them, then they will be prompted to keep believing, so that makes it ongoing. But eternal life...means eternal. Jesus's conversion for someone is once and for all. Nothing uncovered sin wise.

Do you have any verses to support this obligation of the HS or that faith is the responsibility of God to bestow upon us?

Do you have any verses to support this obligation of the HS or that faith is the responsibility of God to bestow upon us?

'Working out your own salvation with fear and trembling ' is the right response to being converted..but not how you are converted.

Conversion is purely believing on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Demons believe..but in context..they have never entrusted their salvation with Him.

They know of God..know He exists.. know He can smite them. But they do not know Him as a personal relationship.

Would this work?
”If we are faithless, he remains faithful— for he cannot deny himself.” 2 Tim 2:13

I agree that God is faithful even when we are faithless. But I dont think this is teaching that God is responsible for our faith, or lackthereof. We see that Israel was faithless regularly in the OT. However, that did not undermine God’s faithfulness towards Israel and his plan to bring hope and salvation to the world. The faithless were still held responsible for their unbelief (see Hebrews 4-5 and 1 Cor. 10) and God’s plans of salvation did not mandate the salvation and security of individual Israelites. They were still held responsible for THEIR belief or faithlessness.

God’s plans of redemption for the world are not dependent on any individual’s faith or unbelief. God’s faithfulness does not mean he chooses who will believe and who will not. It means he stands by his promises even if we stumble and falter. Our security is based on his goodness, not our own. But this is not teaching double predetermination in any way, imo

I agree that God is faithful even when we are faithless. But I dont think this is teaching that God is responsible for our faith, or lackthereof. We see that Israel was faithless regularly in the OT. However, that did not undermine God’s faithfulness towards Israel and his plan to bring hope and salvation to the world. The faithless were still held responsible for their unbelief (see Hebrews 4-5 and 1 Cor. 10) and God’s plans of salvation did not mandate the salvation and security of individual Israelites. They were still held responsible for THEIR belief or faithlessness.

If the receiver of faith could do anything whatsoever to deserve or earn the gift, that person would have every right to boast (Ephesians 2:9). But all such boasting is excluded (Romans 3:27). God wants Christians to understand they have done nothing to earn faith, it’s only because of what Christ did on the cross that God gives anyone faith (Ephesians 2:5, 16).

I do not disagree with any of this. But I don‘t know how this relates to faith being the responsibility of God on behalf of the believer. Faith is our responsibility and God holds us accountable for failure to believe on Jesus Christ. God is not the one at fault for our failure to believe or endure. God calls us to faith because we are capable and responsible moral agents with freedom to trust in Jesus, or not.

Do you have any verses to support this obligation of the HS or that faith is the responsibility of God to bestow upon us?

Didn’t you just answer your own question?

Yes, we believe on Him...and He responds by indwelling us with the Holy Spirit. His faith then maintains our eternal state, because we can't maintain our eternal state. That just isn't possible for us to do.

Romans 10:17
So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Our believing is an act of our will but it is not faith. Faith is the work of the word in a believing soul. There can be no faith apart from the word of God. So in this sense God is responsible for our faith.

It is God's responsibility to finish the work He began in us. This work won't be completed until the resurrection of our bodies and the indwelling Holy Spirit is our seal (guarantee) for this day.

Philippians 1:6
being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;

2 Corinthians 1:22
who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

Ephesians 1:13
In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Romans 10:21 (ESV): 21 But of Israel he says, “All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people.”

What do you mean by “we cant maintain our eternal state”? I think you are conflating two ideas. There is a difference between Christ’s victory being imputed to us to save us and our responsibility to believe in him. If you mean that we cannot earn our own salvation and free ourselves from depravity and death, I agree. If you mean that God has to both save us through the cross and enable us to believe in his saving work, I strongly disagree. The Bible is abundantly clear that faith is our responsibility. Christ has done the work and we are called to believe in him and his work on our behalf. The Biblical message is filled with stories, exhortations and warnings about failure to believe on God’s word and God’s Son. God has done the work, but we are called to trust in his work. The idea that not only has God sent his Son to die for our sins and save us from our sins, but also that he must make us believe in his work as well I find nowhere in the Bible. The purpose of the Holy Spirit is not to make us believe, because we receive the Spirit as a consequence of our belief in him (Acts 2:38). So if your claim is that it is not possible for us to save and sanctify ourselves, I agree wholeheartedly. If your claim is that we cannot maintain our faith in him, then I would say the not only does the Bible not teach this, but it teaches the opposite by the continuous exhortations to believe and endure. Why would God give us such exhortations if it were not possible?

I'm saying we do believe on the Lord Jesus Christ as a one time event.. then the indwelling of the Holy Spirit keeps us saved ....not us. That is all.

Romans 10:17 - Hearing the word of God is not the same as receiving faith. Certainly someone must hear in order to believe, but the preaching of the word does not mandate or bestow faith. Belief is an individual‘s response to hearing. Many who hear do not believe. So it cannot be said that the preaching of the word is God bestowing faith on people. In fact, the context of this very passage teaches this concept explicitly:



Many Israelites did not believe NOT because God was not granting them faith or not permitting them to hear. Rather, they had no faith because THEY were “disobedient” and “contrary.” The lack of faith their refusal to believe and not God’s refusal to grant faith.

Phil. 1:6 - I don’t think this verse has anything to do with someone believing or enduring in the faith. This verse is talking about sanctification and God’s work within us to transform us into the image of Christ. Certainly God is at work in us and through us as Christians to make us more like Jesus. However, I think it is a mistake to suggest that we are without agency in this process or that the initial act of belief is God’s responsibility to bestow upon us.

2 Cor. 1:22 - “sealed” in the biblical sense is not the idea of something being preserved in a ziplock bag. The “seal” is like a mark or brand that indicates you belong to God. This, imo, has more to do with the confidence we have that we are, in fact, part of God’s family and his children as believers. I think this is true of the Eph passages as well. Sealed does not mean that God makes us believe and restricts us from unbelief.

Not sure why you have responded this way. I never said hearing the word is tantamount to being given faith. I said faith is the work of the word in a believing soul. If one hears the word but doesn't believe it, they won't have faith. But no-one can have faith apart from the word.

Within the context of this thread. The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation so if one hears the Gospel and believes it, they are saved. They have passed from death to life. There is no going backwards from that point. You cannot die again because the promise of God won't allow it.

I think you have made too many assumptions about what I said and it has given you an inaccurate picture of what I mean. I never said man is without agency in his salvation. I never said being sealed makes us believe.

I began my earlier post with making the distinction between us believing and having faith. Our believing is an act of our will but faith is assurance and complete conviction and the reason faith is like this is because it's power comes from the word, not our will. The word is eternal power, our wills have very, very, very limited power.

Understanding how our positive volition and God's word work to produce faith is crucial to moving forward to the full stature of Christ.

I am not trying to be mean. If you are reading it that way, I apologize. First, I dont think there is any biblical support for your distinction between faith and belief. In the Greek, faith and belief are the same word. The reason I responded the way I did is because my question was whether faith is our responsibility or God’s. It seemed like you were saying it was God’s responsibility and then quoted Scripture about preaching as the means by which God bestows faith. It still seems like that is your position, except that you are distinguishing between belief as the individual’s act of volition and faith as God’s means of providing security of salvation. However, as I mentioned, the Bible makes no such distinctions. The word translated faith and belief is the same Greek word, pistis..