Loss of salvation???
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Thats cool. I was there from 72-75, minus two summers to Southeast Asia. I shared a house in Valparaiso with three other GI’s, and did a lot of fishing in the local streams that emptied into the bay. I used a tractor inner tube with a #3 washtub in the middle and a board for a seat. My roommate would drop me off at various places and I would float into Niceville or the bay just north of there. I write for the outdoor magazine Great Days Outdoors that is headquartered there.
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'Working out your own salvation with fear and trembling ' is the right response to being converted..but not how you are converted.
Conversion is purely believing on the Lord Jesus Christ.
Demons believe..but in context..they have never entrusted their salvation with Him.
They know of God..know He exists.. know He can smite them. But they do not know Him as a personal relationship.
Conversion is purely believing on the Lord Jesus Christ.
Demons believe..but in context..they have never entrusted their salvation with Him.
They know of God..know He exists.. know He can smite them. But they do not know Him as a personal relationship.
I do not disagree with any of this. But I don‘t know how this relates to faith being the responsibility of God on behalf of the believer. Faith is our responsibility and God holds us accountable for failure to believe on Jesus Christ. God is not the one at fault for our failure to believe or endure. God calls us to faith because we are capable and responsible moral agents with freedom to trust in Jesus, or not.
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I agree that God is faithful even when we are faithless. But I dont think this is teaching that God is responsible for our faith, or lackthereof. We see that Israel was faithless regularly in the OT. However, that did not undermine God’s faithfulness towards Israel and his plan to bring hope and salvation to the world. The faithless were still held responsible for their unbelief (see Hebrews 4-5 and 1 Cor. 10) and God’s plans of salvation did not mandate the salvation and security of individual Israelites. They were still held responsible for THEIR belief or faithlessness.
God’s plans of redemption for the world are not dependent on any individual’s faith or unbelief. God’s faithfulness does not mean he chooses who will believe and who will not. It means he stands by his promises even if we stumble and falter. Our security is based on his goodness, not our own. But this is not teaching double predetermination in any way, imo
God’s plans of redemption for the world are not dependent on any individual’s faith or unbelief. God’s faithfulness does not mean he chooses who will believe and who will not. It means he stands by his promises even if we stumble and falter. Our security is based on his goodness, not our own. But this is not teaching double predetermination in any way, imo
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Romans 10:17
So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Our believing is an act of our will but it is not faith. Faith is the work of the word in a believing soul. There can be no faith apart from the word of God. So in this sense God is responsible for our faith.
It is God's responsibility to finish the work He began in us. This work won't be completed until the resurrection of our bodies and the indwelling Holy Spirit is our seal (guarantee) for this day.
Philippians 1:6
being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;
2 Corinthians 1:22
who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
Ephesians 1:13
In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Ephesians 4:30
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Our believing is an act of our will but it is not faith. Faith is the work of the word in a believing soul. There can be no faith apart from the word of God. So in this sense God is responsible for our faith.
It is God's responsibility to finish the work He began in us. This work won't be completed until the resurrection of our bodies and the indwelling Holy Spirit is our seal (guarantee) for this day.
Philippians 1:6
being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;
2 Corinthians 1:22
who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
Ephesians 1:13
In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Ephesians 4:30
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
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What do you mean by “we cant maintain our eternal state”? I think you are conflating two ideas. There is a difference between Christ’s victory being imputed to us to save us and our responsibility to believe in him. If you mean that we cannot earn our own salvation and free ourselves from depravity and death, I agree. If you mean that God has to both save us through the cross and enable us to believe in his saving work, I strongly disagree. The Bible is abundantly clear that faith is our responsibility. Christ has done the work and we are called to believe in him and his work on our behalf. The Biblical message is filled with stories, exhortations and warnings about failure to believe on God’s word and God’s Son. God has done the work, but we are called to trust in his work. The idea that not only has God sent his Son to die for our sins and save us from our sins, but also that he must make us believe in his work as well I find nowhere in the Bible. The purpose of the Holy Spirit is not to make us believe, because we receive the Spirit as a consequence of our belief in him (Acts 2:38). So if your claim is that it is not possible for us to save and sanctify ourselves, I agree wholeheartedly. If your claim is that we cannot maintain our faith in him, then I would say the not only does the Bible not teach this, but it teaches the opposite by the continuous exhortations to believe and endure. Why would God give us such exhortations if it were not possible?
Romans 10:17 - Hearing the word of God is not the same as receiving faith. Certainly someone must hear in order to believe, but the preaching of the word does not mandate or bestow faith. Belief is an individual‘s response to hearing. Many who hear do not believe. So it cannot be said that the preaching of the word is God bestowing faith on people. In fact, the context of this very passage teaches this concept explicitly:
Many Israelites did not believe NOT because God was not granting them faith or not permitting them to hear. Rather, they had no faith because THEY were “disobedient” and “contrary.” The lack of faith their refusal to believe and not God’s refusal to grant faith.
Phil. 1:6 - I don’t think this verse has anything to do with someone believing or enduring in the faith. This verse is talking about sanctification and God’s work within us to transform us into the image of Christ. Certainly God is at work in us and through us as Christians to make us more like Jesus. However, I think it is a mistake to suggest that we are without agency in this process or that the initial act of belief is God’s responsibility to bestow upon us.
2 Cor. 1:22 - “sealed” in the biblical sense is not the idea of something being preserved in a ziplock bag. The “seal” is like a mark or brand that indicates you belong to God. This, imo, has more to do with the confidence we have that we are, in fact, part of God’s family and his children as believers. I think this is true of the Eph passages as well. Sealed does not mean that God makes us believe and restricts us from unbelief.
Many Israelites did not believe NOT because God was not granting them faith or not permitting them to hear. Rather, they had no faith because THEY were “disobedient” and “contrary.” The lack of faith their refusal to believe and not God’s refusal to grant faith.
Phil. 1:6 - I don’t think this verse has anything to do with someone believing or enduring in the faith. This verse is talking about sanctification and God’s work within us to transform us into the image of Christ. Certainly God is at work in us and through us as Christians to make us more like Jesus. However, I think it is a mistake to suggest that we are without agency in this process or that the initial act of belief is God’s responsibility to bestow upon us.
2 Cor. 1:22 - “sealed” in the biblical sense is not the idea of something being preserved in a ziplock bag. The “seal” is like a mark or brand that indicates you belong to God. This, imo, has more to do with the confidence we have that we are, in fact, part of God’s family and his children as believers. I think this is true of the Eph passages as well. Sealed does not mean that God makes us believe and restricts us from unbelief.
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This discussion reminds me of the story Jesus told people who trusted in themselves...
There is always an element of self-trust in those who do not rest all their hope in Christ. Saving faith is the faith that leads a person to stop working for their salvation.
9 Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’ 13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.” (Lk 18:9–14)
There is always an element of self-trust in those who do not rest all their hope in Christ. Saving faith is the faith that leads a person to stop working for their salvation.
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Not sure why you have responded this way. I never said hearing the word is tantamount to being given faith. I said faith is the work of the word in a believing soul. If one hears the word but doesn't believe it, they won't have faith. But no-one can have faith apart from the word.
Within the context of this thread. The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation so if one hears the Gospel and believes it, they are saved. They have passed from death to life. There is no going backwards from that point. You cannot die again because the promise of God won't allow it.
I think you have made too many assumptions about what I said and it has given you an inaccurate picture of what I mean. I never said man is without agency in his salvation. I never said being sealed makes us believe.
I began my earlier post with making the distinction between us believing and having faith. Our believing is an act of our will but faith is assurance and complete conviction and the reason faith is like this is because it's power comes from the word, not our will. The word is eternal power, our wills have very, very, very limited power.
Understanding how our positive volition and God's word work to produce faith is crucial to moving forward to the full stature of Christ.
Within the context of this thread. The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation so if one hears the Gospel and believes it, they are saved. They have passed from death to life. There is no going backwards from that point. You cannot die again because the promise of God won't allow it.
I think you have made too many assumptions about what I said and it has given you an inaccurate picture of what I mean. I never said man is without agency in his salvation. I never said being sealed makes us believe.
I began my earlier post with making the distinction between us believing and having faith. Our believing is an act of our will but faith is assurance and complete conviction and the reason faith is like this is because it's power comes from the word, not our will. The word is eternal power, our wills have very, very, very limited power.
Understanding how our positive volition and God's word work to produce faith is crucial to moving forward to the full stature of Christ.
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I am not trying to be mean. If you are reading it that way, I apologize. First, I dont think there is any biblical support for your distinction between faith and belief. In the Greek, faith and belief are the same word. The reason I responded the way I did is because my question was whether faith is our responsibility or God’s. It seemed like you were saying it was God’s responsibility and then quoted Scripture about preaching as the means by which God bestows faith. It still seems like that is your position, except that you are distinguishing between belief as the individual’s act of volition and faith as God’s means of providing security of salvation. However, as I mentioned, the Bible makes no such distinctions. The word translated faith and belief is the same Greek word, pistis..
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I never thought you were being mean. Once again you are reading into things that are not there. I simply think you don't understand the mechanics of how one has faith. The Church is usually pretty good at telling us what we must do but not so great at how we do it. 
Logic tells us saving faith and our believing are not the same things. Simply using the same word in a sentence doesn't necessarily follow they have the same meaning. For example:
I will run to the store.
I have a run in my stocking.
I will run for Office.
Explain how one can have faith without the word? It's not possible. The Gospel (word of God) is the power unto salvation and without faith it is impossible to please God.
Faith is the result of the word joining with our positive volition. It is a work of the Spirit. These are the mechanics of how one has faith (in very simplified terms). If the word of God does not meet with you, it will not matter one iota how much or hard you believe, you will not be saved or have the faith to overcome.
You cannot think in terms of Hebrews 11:1 while thinking you can lose what God has given you at the same time. It is God's responsibility to empower salvation, it's our responsibility to not waste what we have been given. But even if we do, God is faithful.
Hebrews 11:1 (AMPC)
1. Now faith is the assurance (the confirmation, the title deed) of the things [we] hope for, being the proof of things [we] do not see and the conviction of their reality [faith perceiving as real fact what is not revealed to the senses].
Faith is a gift. It requires our positive response but our response doesn't create faith.
Logic tells us saving faith and our believing are not the same things. Simply using the same word in a sentence doesn't necessarily follow they have the same meaning. For example:
I will run to the store.
I have a run in my stocking.
I will run for Office.
Explain how one can have faith without the word? It's not possible. The Gospel (word of God) is the power unto salvation and without faith it is impossible to please God.
Faith is the result of the word joining with our positive volition. It is a work of the Spirit. These are the mechanics of how one has faith (in very simplified terms). If the word of God does not meet with you, it will not matter one iota how much or hard you believe, you will not be saved or have the faith to overcome.
You cannot think in terms of Hebrews 11:1 while thinking you can lose what God has given you at the same time. It is God's responsibility to empower salvation, it's our responsibility to not waste what we have been given. But even if we do, God is faithful.
Hebrews 11:1 (AMPC)
1. Now faith is the assurance (the confirmation, the title deed) of the things [we] hope for, being the proof of things [we] do not see and the conviction of their reality [faith perceiving as real fact what is not revealed to the senses].
Faith is a gift. It requires our positive response but our response doesn't create faith.