Loss of salvation???

Can a once truly saved believer backslide too much and lose the gift of salvation? If so do they need to repent and ask for forgiveness through Christ again? Thoughts are welcome and scripture too!

I'm not going to answer this directly, but more indirectly. This is another one of those topics that never get's resolved and there are reasonable arguments on more than one side IMO. It likely takes a fairly sophisticated structure of premises to get it right.

At 12 pages in I'm not reading all of them. We've likely read all or most all of any arguments before. So, I won't know if what I'll say has been said within the 12 pages.

Just a few thoughts from having looked at this many times over many years and having gotten locked into John 6 several times:

1. Jesus says no one is able to come to Him unless it has been granted to him from the Father
   1. "granted" is probably the better translation vs. "given" since a grant can be a more formal action.
   2. Jesus is saying this in the context of some of His "disciples" becoming offended and further, scandalized, by what He is teaching. He this says they did not believe and He equates this to the Father not having granted them to Him.
      1. NKJ John 6:64-66 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father." 66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.
   3. So, it seems:
      1. Our Father granting people to Jesus is, at least in part, the concluding factor in determining who truly believes and who doesn't. God decides who truly believes and who doesn't.
      2. Jesus knew who did not believe, but He let them follow Him as disciples and knew their unbelief would be exposed at some point. In this case it was exposed because they did not remain with Him.
         1. Though Jesus said they did not believe:
            1. Is He saying they believed for a while, but then did not remain, so their belief was not the belief that was required by the Father?
               1. This might compare well with the 2nd and 3rd soil in His Parable of the Sower.
            2. Is He saying they never believed?
               1. It seems this is the case, but this doesn't seem to work with those 2 soils in the Parable of the Sower.
2. Jesus says He will never throw out those the Father gives/grants to Him:
   1. 37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. (Jn. 6:37 NKJ)
   2. This sure seems like eternal security.
      1. But maybe not as many like to think of it.
         1. There's no way continual sinning and lack of spiritual growth correlates to the abiding faith and love commanded of believers.
            1. OSAS under such circumstances seems ludicrous and rightly to be criticized as never saved, or more pertinent to John 6, never granted.
      2. It seems eternal security is seen in the abiding faith and spiritual growth of the Christian as God works in him to both will and do what pleases Him (Phil2:11-12).
         1. I'd just be cautious to not get into judging who is saved and not saved. Some are known to become "fruit inspectors" thinking they have the ability to judge the salvation entrance and process going on in others.
   3. This does not say that Jesus will not let anyone walk away. And He also threw in this twist at the end of John 6:
      1. NKJ John 6:70-71 Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?" 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.
         1. Jesus doesn't say here that the Father granted Judas to Him, but that He chose Judas. But here He says the Father granted Judas to Him and it was to fulfill Scripture
            1. NKJ John 17:12 "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave/ granted to Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
               1. Note Jesus did not throw Judas out
               2. It actually says Judas perished and it says it in the Greek middle voice could be that Judas acted upon himself and received the results of his actions. Or it could be taken in a passive sense which would take more work to better understand.
               3. So, God did grant someone to Jesus who perished and Jesus did not keep.
      2. So, can we take this to show us:
         1. God may well grant unbelievers or temporary believers to Jesus for some purpose and, assuming Judas was either, we may see them walk away (NKJ 1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.) or perish as Judas did?
            1. This gain seems to correlate well with the Parable of the Sower.
            2. IMO most of what goes on in this world under the Sovereign Will and Eternal Power of our Lord will end up having been instructional for and sharpening the wisdom of His eternal siblings (Rom8:29) and our Father's true Children - the Holy Ones of God.

Only God grants people to His Son.
Only God knows who they are.
Only God knows who has and will ultimately have Biblical Faith.
Only God and His Son know their purpose and eternal destiny.
Some may perish.
Some are eternally secure.
It seems to me even the eternally secure are meant to maintain a bit of an edge and proper fear of God while knowing some may have been granted to perish. IOW we are free but freedom does not mean free to sin and all the warnings about falling away are real and He is never to be taken lightly. Faith and Obedience are tightly correlated in our Text. If either is absent, then they both are.

There's more but this is longer than I intended.

The mysterious ways of God, that man continues to want to know and use for the self in the process.
God loves me and all others too. otherwise, Jesus as the Son, One with Father, thought it not robbery to be equal with Father. Would not have gone willingly to that cross to get crucified by man
Which he did, this, then three days later was seen risen, even by those that got him killed on that cross, revealed in Col 1,2

Heresy is never humility.

Really good post . I think a key thing to note is “intentional willful sin “ v a person struggling with some behavior they haven’t yet overcome and it’s not an intentional thing being done of trier own Will .

The difference bieng repentance when they realize it is or was wrong which leads them here

“Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing. For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭7:9-11‬ ‭

Versus pretending like they didn’t do anything wrong that they need to feel guilty or repent over confess or acknolwedge they did wrong at all

“If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭1:8-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

One man is forgiven and washed of his unrighteousness the other has made God out to be a liar and proven themself a non believer of his word not bieng in them . When we’ve done something wrong we should t pretend like we didn’t. We should acknolwedge our sins and should feel sorrow because of the sin this is going to lead to repentance every time “ godly sorrow worketh repentance “

But if I pretend I did t do anything wrong and take no accountability for my sin I’m never going to feel bad for what I did never going to confess what I did and never repent this is willful sin , I’m create a way to continue by avoiding Gods design of getting real and acknolwedging my sins so he can wash them away and teach us to walk upright before God

He knows we aren’t perfect but when we willfully remain on the darkness because we know he’s going to call us out of sin it’s our own corrupt Will working against his Will to free us from sin and death and call us to repentance and life

This is a real thing and why people still share the gospel

; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; and that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2:25-26‬ ‭

there’s a difference in willful intentional sin we won’t repent of willfully and being caught in a snare designed by Satan who has us held captive within our own flesh

“but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭7:

The key to freedom is here given by the lord

“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:31-32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The gospel is meant to do this

“I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭5:32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

because of this

“I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and so he’s giving us time and patience

“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

He already knows we’re sinners he’s looking for those of us who will repent . And own our sins before him so he can take them away and teach us better ways , who believe

Hebrews 6 has earlier context of believers being admonished to go on to maturity, leave elementary principles. That's what is late in Hebrews 5.

So..'Fall away' in Hebrews 6 isn't 'lose eternal life' .. but fall away from going on to maturity. And since the Hebrews were going back to old ways of animal sacrificed.. that is 'tredding under foot' Jesus's one sacrifice for all who belive in Him.

Its a warning of firey discipline for Hebrew believers..not of being cut off from eternal life.

Hebrews 2:2–3 (ESV): For since the message declared by angels proved to be reliable, and every transgression or disobedience received a just retribution, 3 how shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation?

Hebrews 3:16–4:2 (ESV): For who were those who heard and yet rebelled? Was it not all those who left Egypt led by Moses? 17 And with whom was he provoked for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did he swear that they would not enter his rest, but to those who were disobedient? 19 So we see that they were unable to enter because of unbelief.
4 Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us fear lest any of you should seem to have failed to reach it. 2 For good news came to us just as to them, but the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who listened.

Hebrews 4:2–3 (ESV): For good news came to us just as to them, but the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who listened. 3 For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said,
“As I swore in my wrath,
‘They shall not enter my rest,’ ”

Hebrews 6:7–9 (ESV): 7 For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.
9 Though we speak in this way, yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things—things that belong to salvation.

Thanks for your reply. I would disagree that the verses I cited are referring more towards intentional and willful sin. I think most sin is intentional and willful. I dont see that the cross of Christ has more reach regarding unintentional sin than intentional sin (not saying this is your implication). As I see it, these verses refer more to the EFFECT of sin. Persistent sin (whether willful or done in ignorance) has a hardening effect on the heart (cf. Hebrews 3:13). For instance, many in modern culture may feel there is nothing sinful about various practices of sexual depravity. Perhaps they have been convinced by culture or some “Bible scholar” that their actions are not the same as those being denounced in the Scriptures. Either way, if their actions are indeed sinful and abhorrent to God, their “willfulness“ or “ignorance” regarding their sinful actions is irrelevant.

The fact is, as I see it, that the continual giving oneself over to sinful actions results in a hardening of the heart. Is it not the sin that drives a wedge between the believer and God. For the cross of Christ is greater than any sin. However, sin has a hardening effect on the heart that can cause a person to turn away from the faith. Thus, it is this action of turning from the truth of Christ that leads to someone falling from grace. However, I understand your point that there is an incredible danger with those who continue on in unrepentant sin (which obviously is willful since they recognize they are sinning and still refuse to turn away from it). I find it a horrific doctrine that flies in the face of a host of warnings in Scripture that suggests that salvation is some magical state someone receives in a moment of enlightenment. While certainly we should have great peace and joy in coming to know the grace that is in Jesus Christ, we should also take the warnings of Scripture seriously.

This is why I feel its important to distinguish between faith/unbelief and willful sin/sin in ignorance. The grace of Jesus extends to us in all our sin. We do not have to fear that we have sinned one too many times or that one particularly heinous and willful sin somehow pushed us beyond the grace of Christ. The cross of Christ is far to great for such fears and stands above the power of any and all sins. However, Christ’s grace applies only to the believing. If sin causes the heart to harden and faith to fade, then this is when the warnings of falling apply. This is why faith is described as a shield and why the devil’s greatest weapon is a lie. He seeks to pull us from the truth and to strip us of our trust in Christ. For he knows that while we are in Christ, he has no power over us. Anyway, sorry for the rambling. I hope this all makes sense.

This is just not true. I encourage you to read again the entire book in its entirety.
The book begins with showing how Jesus and the message of the Gospel is greater than the angels and the message of the Law. In fact, the author states in chapter 2,



So, obviously, the topic here is neglecting “such a great salvation.” I.e. if the Israelites rejected the message of Moses and angels died as a result, how much more will we be judged if we (the Hebrew readers) reject the message of the Son? The author goes on to show how Jesus is greater than Moses and compares the Gospel to the message Moses spoke to the Israelites as they wandered in the desert. The author goes on to say,



So again, it’s clear the message here is about salvation. The comparison is between those God saved from Egypt who later died in the desert because they did not continue in what they heard. Likewise, Christian’s should continue in the faith of what they have heard lest they follow in the example of those who died in the desert and did not see the promises of God.

Continuing on, in chapter 4 the author says,



So, as we can see from chapter 1 through 4, it’s clear that the entire message and list of warnings being issued centers around salvation. Moreover, after this warning in chapter 5, the author describes the dangers these immature believers face if they turn away from the faith…



In sum, to suggest that these warnings do not pertain to salvation is to completely ignore the context of these passages. It is obviously and clearly speaking of salvation as 6:9 states explicitly.

This is just not true. I encourage you to read again the entire book in its entirety.
The book begins with showing how Jesus and the message of the Gospel is greater than the angels and the message of the Law. In fact, the author states in chapter 2,



So, obviously, the topic here is neglecting “such a great salvation.” I.e. if the Israelites rejected the message of Moses and angels died as a result, how much more will we be judged if we (the Hebrew readers) reject the message of the Son? The author goes on to show how Jesus is greater than Moses and compares the Gospel to the message Moses spoke to the Israelites as they wandered in the desert. The author goes on to say,



So again, it’s clear the message here is about salvation. The comparison is between those God saved from Egypt who later died in the desert because they did not continue in what they heard. Likewise, Christian’s should continue in the faith of what they have heard lest they follow in the example of those who died in the desert and did not see the promises of God.

Continuing on, in chapter 4 the author says,



So, as we can see from chapter 1 through 4, it’s clear that the entire message and list of warnings being issued centers around salvation. Moreover, after this warning in chapter 5, the author describes the dangers these immature believers face if they turn away from the faith…



In sum, to suggest that these warnings do not pertain to salvation is to completely ignore the context of these passages. It is obviously and clearly speaking of salvation as 6:9 states explicitly.

The rest in this isn't about eternal salvation.

This is a different kind of deliverance to eternal salvation.

Entering God's rest is the reward for continual persistence in the faith, not initial acceptance into the Kingdom.

1 Corinthians 10:1–13 (ESV): 10 For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, 2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 and all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ. 5 Nevertheless, with most of them God was not pleased, for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
6 Now these things took place as examples for us, that we might not desire evil as they did. 7 Do not be idolaters as some of them were; as it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink and rose up to play.” 8 We must not indulge in sexual immorality as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in a single day. 9 We must not put Christ to the test, as some of them did and were destroyed by serpents, 10 nor grumble, as some of them did and were destroyed by the Destroyer. 11 Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come. 12 Therefore let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall. 13 No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.

I disagree strongly. The rest spoken of from Joshua was the rest from wandering in the desert and inheriting the promised land. This wandering is compared to the Christian and makes the parallel that we also wander in a desert, feeding on manna from above (the body of Christ) to sustain us. Thus, the “rest” being spoken of is the rest of heaven. The promise of inheriting that rest belongs to those who maintain their faith in the Word of God (the Gospel) unlike the Israelites who did not maintain their faith and were hardened by sin and died in the desert…never receiving the promises of God.

What do you mean by “a different kind of deliverance to eternal salvation?” Can you share a verse that distinguishes these types of eternal salvation you are speaking about?

The initial salvation we receive is not a different “type” of salvation. It marks the beginning of that journey of salvation. In fact, Paul speaks of the Israelites passing through the Red Sea as a “baptism” that is to be compared to Christian baptism (1 Cor. 10:1). We enter the New Covenant with God by passing through that water just as the Israelites began their covenant with God by passing through the Red Sea. However, to suggest that once they entered that covenant that they were guaranteed to enter the Promised Land is clearly not accurate as we see the Biblical narrative teach otherwise. Likewise, the Christian is not “guaranteed” to enter God’s rest because of their entering into the covenant. They must continue in the faith. Without faith it is impossible to please God. The only way to finish a race is to start it. However, this does not mean that all who start are guaranteed to finish. If this were the case, there would be no need for the stark warnings in Hebrews that speaks of “burning” and “no sacrifice left for sins.” In the same way, Jesus is speaking to CHURCHES in Revelation where he warns them that the must repent or hold fast to what they have in order to recieve the rewards of the faithful.

Here is the full context of 1 Cor 10 that I think is instructive in this regard and aligns with the warnings of Hebrews…

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ..eternal salvation given there.

Then there is maturing in the faith..which is a lifelong deliverance. 'Saved' again as the whole life commitment to Christ. The ongoing commitment not dependent on the initial gift given by grace.

Yes and that gift is promised to everyone who is believing on his name. In John 3:16, pistis is a present participle. In other words, it refers to the ongoing act of belief and not a momentary act of faith.

To fall from grace is to fall from God's sphere of power. It does not mean that one dies spiritually again which, is what must happen for one to lose their salvation. We have been saved from death. Where there is no grace, there is no power.

• Acts 4:33
  And with great power the apostles gave witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And great grace was upon them all.
  
  
• 2 Corinthians 12:9
  And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
  
  
• Ephesians 3:7
  of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power.

Headed to Okaloosa Is. towards the end of July. I was stationed at Eglin 71-75.

What scripture did you use that says “ to fall from grace means to fall from God’s power”? I don’t find that in the Bible.

Awesome, I work where the FWB Square (now "Uptown Station") is. About a mile from Brooks bridge and Okaloosa Island. Have you been here since then? I assume you've visited since then to know how different it is now?