There will be no Rapture!!!

When dealing with depraved humans you can't prove it one way, or the other.
Its the sort of thing that people who love arguing get dogmatic about.

The two witnesses will be Moses and Elijah..
Like they both appeared with Jesus at his transfiguration before the disciples.

Now go argue with your door knob.

Hmm. Good question. Let's make sure we get the context:

Daniel 12:9-13
9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words [are] closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
11 And from the time [that] the daily [sacrifice] shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, [there shall be] a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed [is] he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
13 But go thou thy way till the end [be]: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

From Daniel's perspective, that was obviously all a future period as it is unique in its ferocity (Dan. 12:1). "There shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation." That time period will indeed be marked by the deliverance of Daniel's " thy people," Israel, which is mentioned twice in Dan. 12:1.

Then, following the time of trouble spoken of, there will be partial resurrection and a judgment that will follow for those who have been resurrected. The Hebrew term rab, rendered in English as "many," serves as a limitation to the number of those who will be resurrected, as there are Hebrew words such as kōl, which expresses the concept of totality, meaning that all or 'everyone' had it been used in the context of Dan. 12:2. The "thy people" people of the verse also limits this resurrection to the people of Israel. Collectively, this goes along with Isaiah 26 and 1 Thesselonians 4:13-17, which defies the idea of a single general resurrection of both the saved and the lost.

Michael (the archangel) limits these events to the time of the end as stated, not some interlude in the midst of an approach to the end. Such would have prohibited this from having already taken place from our perspective right now, when Antiochus Epiphanes desecrated the temple in 167 BC or in 70 AD at the hands of the Romans (and that's only assuming the Romans did that in the midst of an attack where they burned the temple in order to get all the gold melted down into and onto the lower stones, and hightail it back to Rome with the loot).

Also, Daniel 12:5-13 is linked to Dan. 12:1-4 by the question made by one of the two men Daniel saw in Daniel 12:6, "How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?" The man clothed in white linen described the time of the end, which was earlier called the "time of trouble" as a time period that extends for "it shall be for a time, times, and an half." Some of us suggest that this is consistently defined elsewhere as 3 1/2 years, 1260 days in a 30 day-month calendar. There are a number of passages that describe a period of 3 1/2 years, Daniel 7:25; Daniel 12:7; Revelation 11:2; 12:6, 14; 13:5.

In Daniel 12:11, two events are described that are distinct, and yet that are often put together in terms of time:

* The daily sacrifice will be taken away, and
* There will be an "abomination that maketh desolate."

With a split in time between these two events, this may partially explain the differences in days that are found in the various passages. Some of the dates are counted from the stopping of the sacrifices while others from the desecration of the temple.

The event described in Daniel 12:11 is the "abomination that maketh desolate," which is commonly called the abomination of desolation, right? In Matthew 24:15, Yahshuah refers to a future event that he calls "abomination of desolation" while adding that this was previously spoken by the prophet Daniel, so in 33 AD, Yahshuah said that Daniel 12:11 would be fulfilled in the future. This prohibits this from having been fulfilled in 167 BC at the hands of Antiochus Epiphanes, and I'm sure we can all agree on that. Unless one is willing to call Yahshuah a liar, or they deny that He actually spoke those words, that creates some serious problems, obviously. To those who hold to the doctrine of inspiration and inerrancy, that simply isn't possible. In Daniel 12:1-4 this period is followed by a resurrection, so that puts s top to assigning this to 70 AD as well. Why?

Simply stated: To assign Matthew 24:15, and with it Dan. 12:11 to 70 AD, all creates a couple of problems. The events described in the larger context of Matthew 24:4-14 must be allegoricalized into oblivion, or outright ignored. There will be a time when a number of wars and rumors of wars will be taking place. The context of the Jewish rebellion doesn't fit in here. Those wars will involve many nations, not the two nations of Rome and Israel that were present in the Jewish rebellion of 70 AD. A great deal of physical judgments will come in the form of "famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places," all suggesting a larger context than the narrow context surrounding Jerusalem in 70 AD.

The strongest argument for a future time period for this is the description in Matthew 24:16-31. The abomination of desolation marks the beginning of a period, not the end of it. The temple is destroyed at the end of the siege of Jerusalem and therefore it would have made no sense for Yahshuah to tell people to flee once they saw the abomination. In 70 AD it would have been too late, the Romans had by then already surrounded and destroyed the city. Yahshuah, in Matthew 24:21, also calls this a period of unequal ferocity with the added phrase that it will occur once -- οὐδʼ οὐ μὴ γένηται (and never will be). Given that the events of 70 AD were terrible in their ferocity and suffering, we have seen numerous times where the suffering has far exceeded the events of 70 AD. It is known that Jerusalem has been destroyed and rebuilt more than 30 times throughout its history. Once again, to make Dan. 12:11 as having taken place in 70 AD requires the idea that Yahshuah was utterly wrong when He said there would never again be a time period as horrific as the "Great Tribulation."

Therefore, in answer to your question, I will say for now that Daniel 12:1-13 rightfully coincides with the time period known as the Great Tribulation and the events right after the tribulation. There will be great wrath poured out by the Lamb upon His second coming, such as the sheep and goat judgment. This too may explain some of the differences in the number of days. There are quite a few other passages that could also be used to show the consistency in Scripture of describing a future time period. Couched within the context of those passages we see descriptions of other events that, when taken literally, can only be seen as a yet future event.

MM

I think you're missing what Genez was saying.
He was referencing the specific, future, LIMITED time-period we commonly call the Tribulation period (7 years in duration [SEALS--TRUMPETS--VIALS!]... the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period [Rev1:1/1:19c/4:1]).

Whereas YOU are referring to the entire near-2000-YEARS the Church which is His body has been in existence on this earth (and experiencing persecutions and tribulations like the Thessalonians did per 2Th1:4).

That's the difference...

... so, no... the "whole church as a body" (the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY in its entirety) will NOT BE PRESENT (in your scenario) because the majority will have existed on this earth long before that "specific, future, LIMITED time-period" of "7 YEARS" comes to exist.




That's what Genez is talking about.

And you responded with "They do" [?!] (i.e. they DO [the WHOLE church AS A BODY] go through that specific, future, LIMITED time-period--the "7 years"--just HOW?! )

Except that through the treaty signed with Israel with the man of sin for seven years, Israel will indeed be living in peaceful recline, but that man of sin will break his own treaty in the middle, yes. That's what I've been saying all along.

All that, given that the Church is not "appointed" to wrath, the faithful people of the Church will not be here through either half and all the death and destruction that will be poured out by the Lamb, which you seem to want to ignore and/or deny.

You claim that you'll be here, which is to say that you're not a part of the Church because you WANT to be here through the first half...IF you survive it with one out of every two people on the face of the planet dying! Go for it! You've got more guts than I have, especially if you think you will survive that much death and destruction, famine, pestilence, et al.

MM

You're right. It is indeed silly to think that YOU will be among those the Lord will protect in the second half...unless you are an Israeli living in that area and flee into the desert as Yah inspired to be written. How can you prove to us that you are among them, or WILL BE among them? You can't, unless you're over there and are a part of them when they flee, and are an Israeli!

MM

You do realize Moses and Elijah represented the Law and the Prophets at the Transfiguration and Jesus is the fulfillment of both.

Of course you don't.

I am only referring to whomever is alive when Tribulation begins.
You don't even know Hebrew. Why do you think you would understand a Jew like me?

Israel will be in Peace the first half. There's nothing in scripture to claim it won't be. The Bible is clear the Treaty will not be broken until the AC is in the Temple claiming to be God. Till that time it will be Peaceful.

And Genez was referring to "the whole church as a body" (which it IS)... "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"

... why does the majority of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" get to miss out on "the tribulation period" and only "the last of them" have to experience it (per your view), was the gist of his question.

At Seal #2, "peace" is taken from the earth (that is WELL BEFORE the "5th Trumpet / 1st Woe unto the earth" MID-trib point).



Rev 6 -
3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.

4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

[the underlined parts I see as parallel to parts of Ezek38-39 "sword" (38:21)]

There actually won't be peace for the Sinners because the Witnesses have the power from day 1 to mid point to fulfill verse 6 They have the power to shut the sky, that no rain may fall during the days of their prophesying, and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague, as often as they desire.

And the Beast is in the pit until the next verse 7 And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that rises from the bottomless pit

^ I don't believe the verse is saying that the Beast IS IN THE PIT until then; it is just describing WHO it is who will do the thing at that time-slot ("the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit"--THAT ONE).





https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/rev/11/7/t_concif_1178007

Doesn't matter where he is he cannot do anything until he breaks the Treaty and that won't happen until the Witnesses are finished with their Testimony.

Again, that is your ASSUMPTION.

They are killed at/around the "6th Trumpet [events] / 2nd Woe"...

... whereas the MID-trib point is at the "5th Trumpet / 1st Woe unto the earth" (i.e. BEFORE the "6th Trumpet events")...

...so your saying, "until he breaks the treaty" (at MID-trib) is when they are killed, does not line up with what Scripture itself informs us of, and therefore is only so much "human reasoning". IOW, there is NOTHING in Scripture that says EVERY INCH the second half of the Trib cannot coexist with ANY PART OF the "2W's" ministry... this "idea" exists only in your mind merely because you THINK this must be the case.

(and yeah, I think you base PART of that reasoning on the wording found in 11:7... but which I am pointing out that it doesn't mean he's ascending out of the pit at that moment... it is just identifying WHO it is who will do this at that time-slot)

The Witnesses have power and are creating havoc for Sinners but no one messes with them until after mid point. The Jews are not fooled until after mid point. It seems only you are the one not following the Biblical Pattern.

Thank you for stating exactly what I said, and the one you call "antichrist" will break that treaty in the middle by putting an end to sacrifices, and setting up his image in the holy place and declaring himself to be some sort of god to be worshipped.

MM

Which is what I said: they are KILLED at the "6th Trumpet (events) [2nd Woe]"... which is AFTER the MID-point "5th Trumpet [1st Woe into the earth]"
And...?
How do you figure?




____________

"Seal #2" is INCLUDED within the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period we call "the tribulation period" (i.e. 7 yrs)

I am saying Believers are not effected until after mid point. The Witnesses have power and the Jews have peace.

Right?! I mean, they say crazy things just like that!

Who were you quoting?