There will be no Rapture!!!

[Genez]

There will be no pre or mid tribulation rapture. This is an invention of the dispensationalists. The Pre-Rapture was invented by the dispensationalist John Darby in the 19th century. It did not exist before that. Church history did not know a Pre-Rapture before the 19th century..

Jealous!

 

[Musicmaster]

I've been asked before as to why the saints who are saved in the midst of the tribulation will have to endure that wrath, if not the Church.

Simply stated, that same section of scripture quoted above gives to us an answer:

Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Those who enter into that period of the wrath of the Lamb poured out onto this earth, having rejected Christ up to the point of His wrath upon this earth, and therefore enemies of Christ, they will have to endure that wrath for not having accepted and embraced Christ BEFORE His wrath is poured out. That's the penalty through which they will have to pass before realizing the reward.

Some have claimed, "Well, that's just not fair!"

They'll have to take that up with Yahshuah.

MM

 

[Genez]

You either accept what scripture teaches, or you don't. Makes no difference to me. I'm Israeli, was raised as Orthodox, and have long since walked away from that, so what you do is between you and Yah. I never said anything about teaching you anything, just sharing.

MM

I accept Scripture.
I just do not do it in a foolish way by jumping to conclusions.

Well.... then.

And if your eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. ​

It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes ​

and be thrown into the fire of hell." Mat 18:9​

​

You have only one eye left?

When something concluded is obviously illogical?
That means you have more to learn, and should wait, not having jumped to conclusions..

And, would you please, get off your foolish, "I am Jewish" kick?
You are making us who are Jewish look bad.

I lived on Beit Hakerem street in Jerusalem for the summer of 1968
where I attended the American College in Jerusalem.
And, my dad was one of the founders of the local synagogue I was bar mitzvah'd in.

Being Jewish does not put one at advantage if religious pride one's god.

Now... go pluck out your eye.

 

[Genez]

I've been asked before as to why the saints who are saved in the midst of the tribulation will have to endure that wrath, if not the Church.

They will be the continuation of the Jewish age believers, not Church.
Like John the Baptist was a Jewish believer in Jesus Christ.

John the Baptist when resurrected will not be in the Bride of Christ.

 

[Musicmaster]

I accept Scripture.
I just do not do it in a foolish way by jumping to conclusions.

Well.... then.

And if your eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. ​

It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes ​

and be thrown into the fire of hell." Mat 18:9​

​

You have only one eye left?

When something concluded is obviously illogical?
That means you have more to learn, and should wait, not having jumped to conclusions..

And, would you please, get off your foolish, "I am Jewish" kick?
You are making us who are Jewish look bad.

I lived on Beit Hakerem street in Jerusalem for the summer of 1968
where I attended the American College in Jerusalem.
And, my dad was one of the founders of the local synagogue I was bar mitzvah'd in.

Being Jewish does not put one at advantage if religious pride one's god.

Now... go pluck out your eye.

Oh yeah? Well, my dad can beat up your dad...!

Seriously? You do indeed presume much to think that I'm any less Jewish than you. Our experiences are different, and I don't lay claim to have grown up in Israel. I also am not among the secular Jews in New York who hate our brothers in Israel, domestically and abroad. Their hatred is something I've experienced firsthand.

So, when it comes to advantage, I have never even hinted at such, so am not at all understanding your slant in that direction. I have many Messianic Jewish acquaintances, and they too have their own problems in their understanding, kissing the Torah scroll as it's passed around in a service program that's almost an exact copy of a Protestant church service than anything truly Jewish in origin.

So, when it comes to logic, many of us out here are well grounded in it.

MM

 

[Genez]

Seriously? You do indeed presume much to think that I'm any less Jewish than you.

You wandered off and are talking to yourself now....

Come back when you want to connect with others.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

TWO WITNESSES - TWO OLVIVE TREES - TWO LAMPSTANDS
1260 DAYS = First Half of Tribulation

Revelation 11:
3 And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”
4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.


1. What does an Olive Tree in the Bible represent?
[Jews and Gentiles Followers of God]
Jeremiah 11: [Jews]
16 The Lord once called you ‘a green olive tree
Romans 11: [Gentiles]
17 .......and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree


2. What does a Lampstand in the Bible represent?
[Church or Body of Believers]
Revelation 1:
20 .......and the seven lampstands are the seven churches


3. Scripture Proofs:
[Verses to verify Believers are Witnesses]
Acts 2:
19 And I will show wonders in heaven above and signs In the earth beneath, blood and fire and vapor of smoke.

20 The sun shall be turned into darkness and the moon into blood, before the great day of the Lord shall come.

[What will the TWO WITNESSES be doing]
Revelation 11:
6 These have authority to shut heaven, that rain fall not in the days of their prophecy, and they have authority over the waters to turn them into blood, and to smite the earth with every plague as often as they will.


4. How long will the Church Body, the Olive Tree, the Lampstand of Jesus be on earth during Tribulation?
[1260 Days or 3 1/2 years]





People act like God cannot protect the CHURCH during Tribulation.
If the Church is the TWO WITNESS/OLIVE TREE/LAMPSTAND it will not only be able to survive but have the full power of God.

 

[Musicmaster]

TWO WITNESSES - TWO OLVIVE TREES - TWO LAMPSTANDS
1260 DAYS = First Half of Tribulation

Revelation 11:
3 And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”
4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.


1. What does an Olive Tree in the Bible represent?
[Jews and Gentiles Followers of God]
Jeremiah 11: [Jews]
16 The Lord once called you ‘a green olive tree
Romans 11: [Gentiles]
17 .......and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree


2. What does a Lampstand in the Bible represent?
[Church or Body of Believers]
Revelation 1:
20 .......and the seven lampstands are the seven churches


3. Scripture Proofs:
[Verses to verify Believers are Witnesses]
Acts 2:
19 And I will show wonders in heaven above and signs In the earth beneath, blood and fire and vapor of smoke.

20 The sun shall be turned into darkness and the moon into blood, before the great day of the Lord shall come.

[What will the TWO WITNESSES be doing]
Revelation 11:
6 These have authority to shut heaven, that rain fall not in the days of their prophecy, and they have authority over the waters to turn them into blood, and to smite the earth with every plague as often as they will.


4. How long will the Church Body, the Olive Tree, the Lampstand of Jesus be on earth during Tribulation?
[1260 Days or 3 1/2 years]





People act like God cannot protect the CHURCH during Tribulation.
If the Church is the TWO WITNESS/OLIVE TREE/LAMPSTAND it will not only be able to survive but have the full power of God.

You started out talking about two lampstands, then you shifted over to the seven. Which is it?

MM

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

You started out talking about two lampstands, then you shifted over to the seven. Which is it?

MM

Lampstands period are known as Churches. 2 Church Bodies the Jews for the Messiah and the Gentile Christians. Which is what we have now with Messianic Jews and non Jew Christians.

 

[Musicmaster]

Lampstands period are known as Churches. 2 Church Bodies the Jews for the Messiah and the Gentile Christians. Which is what we have now with Messianic Jews and non Jew Christians.

And yet...

Galatians 3:27-29
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

This is the reason I try to be very careful trying to weave together a tattered tapestry of theological doctrines from disjointed verses ripped from their contexts.

MM

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

20 .......and the seven lampstands are the seven churches

Lampstands period are known as Churches.

The seven letters were to "the seven churchES"

This is one reason reason I'm always pointing out:

--the "churchES" are made up of both believers and those who come in His name but who are not actually saved/believers;

...whereas...

--"the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" is made up of ONLY "believers" (those having come to faith in Christ "in this present age [singular]");





so to say "unto the churchES" is not the same thing as saying "to the Church which is His body"

 

[Musicmaster]

The seven letters were to "the seven churchES"

This is one reason reason I'm always pointing out:

--the "churchES" are made up of both believers and those who come in His name but who are not actually saved/believers;

...whereas...

--"the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" is made up of ONLY "believers" (those having come to faith in Christ "in this present age [singular]");





so to say "unto the churchES" is not the same thing as saying "to the Church which is His body"

Good point about how church organizations can be and are populated by unbelievers and the unsaved, while the Church itself is not. I've been pointing this out for years in relation to churchianity, and supporters of churchianity don't like it at all...except for those more liberal, universalist gangs who accept anything and everything...

MM

 

[Blade]

"So from now on we regard no one from a human point of view [according to worldly standards and values]. Though we have known Christ from a human point of view, now we no longer know Him in this way." "Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven"

So if we could graft in a branch into a tree so that no one could tell the difference between the grafted in vs branch that was originally of the vine. Even the original branches could not tell. Well what would you see? We are not of this world. This world is not our home. God to Abraham if you are able to count the stars. Were not seeing this as He does we are looking at it earthly. Hmm

God .. no sure why I am stuck on Abraham here but in Gen 17:5 "....for I have made you the father of many nations". Do you see it? Calling those things that be not as though they were. We are one.. as Isaac was I am a child or promise. To put my self out there.. I asked Him once do you love me like you love him.. I pictured a Jewish person sitting to my left. Well I saw this hand come down a tiny tree never seen a tree with so many branches all in the shape of the Jewish Candle. He placed it between us then said "show me a branch that was no originally of the vine. I am the vine you are the branches". Just..look how He answered that. No I love you just as much.

Then what He said .. I have read it so many many times and how could I be so blind. I guess I can be slow because after He said this.. I had no clue what He meant by show me a branch that was originally of the vine. What?

Point is.. how does He see His body? Not divided.

 

[Genez]

Point is.. how does He see His body? Not divided.

Did he did not lie..

​

“Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, ​

but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, ​

and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. And a person's enemies will be those of his ​

own household. " Matthew 10:34-36​

There must be division if some are really finding Truth in the midst of the spiritual battle we have been drafted into.

​

​

In the first place, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you, ​

and to some extent I believe it. No doubt there have to be factions among you to show which of​

you have God’s approval." 1 Corinthians 11:18-19​

When someone in church leadership demands conformity to induce unity, he is like a director handing out a script to make all believers into actors auditioning for a part in a play.

Spiritual warfare is real.....

Demons are genius for detecting those who walk in their emotions, and will use such a believer's natural perspective
to get him to think he is doing God's will in opposition to what is the Truth.

Not every believer walks in God's grace!

For it says God resists the proud believer.

Or do you presume it is to no purpose that the Scripture speaks in vain against jealously?​

The Spirit that he has made to dwell in us pursues us with love, and he gives more grace.​

Therefore it says, “God opposes (makes war against) the proud but gives grace to the humble.”​

Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. " James 4:5-7​

There will be divisions as long as there is an accurate understanding somewhere to be made known to the Church!
There will be divisions as long as the weak continue to envy the maturing believer.

There we have it....

grace and peace ............

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

The seven letters were to "the seven churchES"

This is one reason reason I'm always pointing out:

--the "churchES" are made up of both believers and those who come in His name but who are not actually saved/believers;

...whereas...

--"the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" is made up of ONLY "believers" (those having come to faith in Christ "in this present age [singular]");





so to say "unto the churchES" is not the same thing as saying "to the Church which is His body"

You clearly do not understand Hebrew symbiology.

Lampstand always has meant a Body of Believers.

Jesus even threatens to remove each Churches Lampstand which is to make an end of that specific Congregation.

And God called Israel an Olive Tree and Paul said Gentiles were being grafted into the Olive Tree.

Maybe LEARN some Hebrew before thinking you know something

 

[Musicmaster]

You clearly do not understand Hebrew symbiology.

Lampstand always has meant a Body of Believers.

Jesus even threatens to remove each Churches Lampstand which is to make an end of that specific Congregation.

And God called Israel an Olive Tree and Paul said Gentiles were being grafted into the Olive Tree.

Maybe LEARN some Hebrew before thinking you know something

Well, now. There's brow beating if ever there was such. Flicking one's brows in pride over a knowledge that one can usually assume others don't know, that's not an impressive response.

If you REALLY want to impress us all, why not explain, in detail, your premises that led to YOUR conclusion that the Church is the second lampstand of the two that were actually spoken in relation to the two witnesses. Please explain the dynamics of that parallel rather than to snort your allegedly "superior" knowledge of Hebrew symbiology!

Thanks in advance for the explanation...if you can offer one!

MM

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Well, now. There's brow beating if ever there was such. Flicking one's brows in pride over a knowledge that one can usually assume others don't know, that's not an impressive response.

If you REALLY want to impress us all, why not explain, in detail, your premises that led to YOUR conclusion that the Church is the second lampstand of the two that were actually spoken in relation to the two witnesses. Please explain the dynamics of that parallel rather than to snort your allegedly "superior" knowledge of Hebrew symbiology!

Thanks in advance for the explanation...if you can offer one!

MM

It began with the old debate about who are the Two Witnesses.
Both Zechariah and John (Revelation) mentioned 2 Olive Trees and 2 Lampstands.
So I searched all connections to Moses, Elijah, and Enoch to God connecting them to Olive Trees or Lampstands.
I knew they had to be people because they will be wearing sackcloth which only people do that.
But no connection to any individual.
God specifically called the Jews Olive Tree and Paul said Gentiles were grafted into the Olive Tree.
So I looked to see if Lampstand would confirm a Body of People.
And Lampstand Spiritually means Body of Believers which Churches have been called Lampstands and John even uses Lampstand to classify Churches/Body of Believers.
And then in Acts and other places in New Testament the Apostles like Peter calls those in Christ Witnesses.

And we know the Two Witnesses/Olive Trees in both Zechariah and Revelation get RAPTURED.

 

[Musicmaster]

It began with the old debate about who are the Two Witnesses.
Both Zechariah and John (Revelation) mentioned 2 Olive Trees and 2 Lampstands.
So I searched all connections to Moses, Elijah, and Enoch to God connecting them to Olive Trees or Lampstands.
I knew they had to be people because they will be wearing sackcloth which only people do that.
But no connection to any individual.
God specifically called the Jews Olive Tree and Paul said Gentiles were grafted into the Olive Tree.
So I looked to see if Lampstand would confirm a Body of People.
And Lampstand Spiritually means Body of Believers which Churches have been called Lampstands and John even uses Lampstand to classify Churches/Body of Believers.
And then in Acts and other places in New Testament the Apostles like Peter calls those in Christ Witnesses.

And we know the Two Witnesses/Olive Trees in both Zechariah and Revelation get RAPTURED.

Ahhh, so now we get down to the mid-trib or pre-wrath dogma. I figured there was some seeming connection in there somewhere that you would offer as some sort of backing to your belief about when the rapture will occur.

Given that this is such a flimsy backing for the mid/post tribulational position, we can then call into question the seeming connections you have made. Where it's true that there may be, seemingly, a connection with the way you interpret the symbiology, there's also room for error in relation to the reality of what's actually in the mind of Yah in all this, given that His Thoughts and Ways are above ours as the heavens are above the earth, we can settle back for now and simply see your dogma as a mere possibility, and nothing more.

I try to be careful about things such as this when it potentially comes close to the dangers of this:

2 Peter 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as [they were] from the beginning of the creation.

MM

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Ahhh, so now we get down to the mid-trib or pre-wrath dogma. I figured there was some seeming connection in there somewhere that you would offer as some sort of backing to your belief about when the rapture will occur.

Given that this is such a flimsy backing for the mid/post tribulational position, we can then call into question the seeming connections you have made. Where it's true that there may be, seemingly, a connection with the way you interpret the symbiology, there's also room for error in relation to the reality of what's actually in the mind of Yah in all this, given that His Thoughts and Ways are above ours as the heavens are above the earth, we can settle back for now and simply see your dogma as a mere possibility, and nothing more.

MM

Actually, I just discovered this. I was always pre-wrath. But this has literally scripture that confirms it where pre-trib people have to say this means this and that when it literally does not say that in the Bible.

But Olive Tree and Lampstand is all throughout Old and New Testament as Believers of God.
Wearing Sackcloth was merely the bonus of verification

 

[Musicmaster]

Actually, I just discovered this. I was always pre-wrath. But this has literally scripture that confirms it where pre-trib people have to say this means this and that when it literally does not say that in the Bible.

But Olive Tree and Lampstand is all throughout Old and New Testament as Believers of God.
Wearing Sackcloth was merely the bonus of verification

Pre-wrath? Well, that doesn't mean much given that ALL the tribulation is the "wrath of the Lamb," which is precisely what is said about the very beginning with the first seal.

MM