Mike Winger's "Why I think Calvinism is Unbiblical"

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maxamir

maxamir

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Evmur said:
You are better than this.

You are a Dispensationalist, we all are since we are not under the law but under grace.

I believe the church and not Israel will go through the Great Tribulation, the Great Tribulation is Antichrist's final attempt to destroy all religion [with the possible exception of Judaism]

It is very difficult to discern the worship of the Millennial reign but Christ and His atoning sacrifice [then recognised by the Jews] will be the centre of it.

Our Lord is Head over all things for the church, He always is King but His Sovereignty is not manifest to all, He has not yet put all things under His feet. He is to be manifest to ALL as King and honoured by all. This is the glory to be revealed.
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I am no dispensationalist. The only Israel today is that which is of God made up of those who are circumcised of heart and not of the flesh.

Christ is reigning right now through His people who faithfully herald the great victory He has wrought for them and not some literal 1000 year period.

Col 1:26 the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints.
Col 1:27 To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

His sovereignty is to be proclaimed in His Gospel so that men may fear Him but most are too cowardly to do so because they have been ensnared by the fear of men.
 
maxamir

maxamir

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Evmur said:
Not all will be saved, but the quarrel is about whether this is by God's decree.

That God has decreed death to the sinner and has from the beginning faithfully warned every man is PROOF that sin is not His decree. God has no truc with sin or the father of it.
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God is light and in Him is no darkness at all but He decrees all things that come to pass for His greater glory even the evil that entered the world by the choice of man through the temptation of the devil to demonstrate His holy hatred of evil to the praise of the glory of His eternal justice and His holy love in saving His people from that evil to the praise of the glory of His eternal grace which never would have been known by men without the Fall.

Prophecy would be impossible if God did not ordain all things that come to pass. His people know this and can therefore trust Him in all things accordingly as did Joseph.

Gen 50:20 But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive.
 
maxamir

maxamir

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Evmur said:
I BELIEVE in sovereign election unto the church, we are chosen before all worlds were begun to be a people for praise of God's glorious grace. chosen to be conformed to the image of the Beloved, God's Son.

This excludes nobody from being saved.
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It is the message that not all are saved which Christ plainly confirmed that God uses to humble men in order to search their hearts to see if they be in the faith, to make their election and calling sure and to work out their salvation with fear and trembling.

To say that nobody is excluded from being saved is to falsely state that God has chosen all to be saved. Men are to be lovingly told that God is indeed close to those of a broken heart and a contrite spirit but that He excludes the proud from being saved for He only gives grace to the humble.

Why do you continue to pursue a man-centred false gospel in which salvation is dependent upon the choice of men and not the choice and grace of God? In doing so you rob a perfectly jealous God of the glory of His salvation!
 
maxamir

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Evmur said:
God subdues the human will, subjucates it to His own. We put our hands up in surrender.

I have never understood why Christians would object to this, He is God, He has the right subjucate our wills to His own. If it were a man then yes we may protest and rebel but it is God.

And He knows us better than we know ourselves and He knows what is best for us better than we do. God's will is perfect.

's no such thing as human freewill.
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I thoroughly agree with what you have written but it still seems that you are inconsistent for if man is indeed spiritually dead and incapable of doing anything to be saved then why do you insist that the cross of Christ is sufficient to save all when Scripture proclaims its sufficiency is found in its efficiency to save those that He has decreed to be saved by grace which is not according to the will of men?
 
maxamir

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cv5 said:
Can only happen if there is actual free will. Without free will, there is neither.
Which of course quashes your foolish (aka evil) pretensions that God condemns some and saves others.....BEFORE THEY ARE EVER BORN.

And if there is no free will then this parable is meaningless....and makes God a liar.
In fact this parable is CHOCK FULL of free will. Literally everything anyone ever did was of their own free will.
Of both sons and the father as well!

The Parable of the FORGIVING FATHER

11Then Jesus said, “There was a man who had two sons. 12The younger son said to him, ‘Father, give me my share of the estate.’ So he divided his property between them.

13After a few days, the younger son got everything together and journeyed to a distant country, where he squandered his wealth in wild living.

14After he had spent all he had, a severe famine swept through that country, and he began to be in need. 15So he went and hired himself out to a citizen of that country, who sent him into his fields to feed the pigs. 16He longed to fill his belly with the pods the pigs were eating, but no one would give him a thing.

17Finally he came to his senses and said, ‘How many of my father’s hired servants have plenty of food? But here I am, starving to death! 18I will get up and go back to my father and say to him, “Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. 19I am no longer worthy to be called your son. Make me like one of your hired servants.” ’

20So he got up and went to his father. But while he was still in the distance, his father saw him and was filled with compassion. He ran to his son, embraced him, and kissed him.

21The son declared, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.b’

22But the father said to his servants, ‘Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. 23Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let us feast and celebrate. 24For this son of mine was dead and is alive again! He was lost and is found!’ So they began to celebrate.
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every person indeed has free will according to their nature and as every person is enslaved to sin and Satan in Adam therefore only those who the Son sets free are free indeed. Christ's words would make no sense if people are already free as you falsely assume.

Joh_8:36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.
 
maxamir

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Inquisitor said:
Maxamir, do you accept that Gentiles can be grafted out?

Romans 11:19-21
You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” Quite right,
they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited,
but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

The Jews, God's elect, were grafted out.

This is a warning Maxamir, the Gentiles can also be grafted out again.
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the grafting process is complete as there is no longer Jew or Gentile for Christ has broken down the wall of division between them and made them one in Him. Any semblance of the Old Covenant was completely fulfilled in the New Covenant, which was confirmed in the destruction of the temple in 70AD and with it the shadows and types of their sacrificial system.

Eph 2:14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation,
Eph 2:15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Take off the veil of the old and step out of its shadows into the glorious light of the New Covenant in Christ Jesus!
 
selahsays

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FollowerofShiloh said:
51 “You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit.


This proves the Holy Spirit was there when Stephen preached and they rejected God.

God made them accountable for rejecting Him.
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Right. …because these stiff-necked people never desired God. Therefore, God did not give them His gift of Grace. God never drew them in. Why? …because, no matter what, they wouldn’t come to Him; they wouldn’t call on Him to be saved. What does Romans 10:13 tell us? “For "whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved." —selah
 
cv5

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maxamir said:
God is light and in Him is no darkness at all but He decrees all things that come to pass for His greater glory even the evil
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And THAT......is the primordial lie of Satan. The other being that true life and true free will do not exist, making all creation hapless puppets on a string and God a wicked tyrant.

Concomitantly, Satan also accuses God of being an unjust wicked judge, and cannot judge sin. Which Satan hopes is going to work in the court of heaven at his trial.

God, of course, has an answer to these false charges, the right ones, and the ones that work.

"The New American Standard Bible gives the sense of Isaiah 45:6-7 more clearly: "There is no one besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other, the One forming light and creating darkness, causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the Lord who does all these." In other words, God devises calamity as a judgment for the wicked. But in no sense is He the author of evil."
 
HeIsHere

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Cameron143 said:
The heart of the natural man can respond in many ways. But all those ways will be in opposition to God.
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There is no scripture that makes this kind of a definitive statement that can be generalized to all people for all time.
 
HeIsHere

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cv5 said:
And THAT......is the primordial lie of Satan. The other being that true life and true free will do not exist, making all creation hapless puppets on a string and God a wicked tyrant.
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And that is not a problem for those who follow this doctrine.
A little ironic they cannot see truth when they preach the natural man cannot discern truth.
 
Jimbone

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Mem said:
I know one too many people that can't see their own rudeness in pretending to be nice to me. But on the positive side, my eyes are getting exercised in so frequently rolling them.
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Cameron143 said:
Not exactly sure of your point or even if I'm the one standing accused. But no need to be cryptic. I'm not offended by rebuke, and have no problem apologizing if I have committed an offense.
I know of no cure for stressed eye muscles due to over eye rolling other than rest.
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Mem said:
It's more of a quirky reflex in want of the rest from observing the manipulated animation from such persons whose characteristics are reminiscent of both puppet and puppeteer. And I would have to know you more personally than the internet allows in order to determine your worth in accusing, notwithstanding my suspicions of course. ;)
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Cameron143 said:
While it wouldn't be advisable to make functional judgments based on a small sampling of a poster's contributions, a larger body of posts reveals quite a bit about an individual.
Perhaps an eye patch worn consecutively from one eye to the other might provide some relief.
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Mem said:
Lol, do you find that works well enough for you?
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This conversation had me rolling my eyes so bad half the office thought I was having a seizure.
 
Cameron143

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HeIsHere said:
There is no scripture that makes this kind of a definitive statement that can be generalized to all people for all time.
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The evidence is throughout the Bible, and it begins directly after the first sin...Adam and Eve hide from God. Romans 8:7 says the carnal man is at enmity with God.
So yes,yes it does.
 
cv5

cv5

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Cameron143 said:
The evidence is throughout the Bible, and it begins directly after the first sin...Adam and Eve hide from God.
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This after Adam made the RIGHT CHOICE in preventing the Woman from eating of the tree of life, as well as resisting the temptation himself.

Furthermore, in their fallen state, both Adam and the Woman do the RIGHT THING, confess and testify TRUTHFULLY of their sin at their trial, and have the sheer guts to finger Satan as the real villain and instigator.

So.....Eve is flawless, perfect, has eternal life (aka union with God)......and is deceived and then commits awful sins!
Adam, likewise flawless and perfect, in union with God, CHOOSES WILLFULLY TO SIN! Even though Adam is not deceived.

Both then MAKE THE RIGHT CHOICES, are saved, acquitted, and given the promise of a Redeemer. Satan, the murderer, is given the promise of devastating judgement.

So how then does your theory of the total depravity of fallen natural man apply in this seminal case? A case that applies to ALL MEN FOR ALL TIME.

 
Cameron143

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cv5 said:
This after Adam made the RIGHT CHOICE in preventing the Woman from eating of the tree of life, as well as resisting the temptation himself.

Furthermore, in their fallen state, both Adam and the Woman do the RIGHT THING, confess and testify TRUTHFULLY of their sin at their trial, and have the sheer guts to finger Satan as the real villain and instigator.

So.....Eve is flawless, perfect, has eternal life (aka union with God)......and is deceived and then commits awful sins!
Adam, likewise flawless and perfect, in union with God, CHOOSES WILLFULLY TO SIN! Even though Adam is not deceived.

Both then MAKE THE RIGHT CHOICES, are saved, acquitted, and given the promise of a Redeemer. Satan, the murderer, is given the promise of devastating judgement.

So how then does your theory of the total depravity of fallen natural man apply in this seminal case? A case that applies to ALL MEN FOR ALL TIME.

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Save your bluster. It was God who came to them while they were shamefully hiding and passing blame on anybody else and who shed blood on their behalf and provided a suitable covering for them. Both these representing the shed blood of Christ and the righteousness of Christ. It was God who initiated, and God who provided salvation. It's always about God.
 
cv5

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cv5 said:
This after Adam made the RIGHT CHOICE in preventing the Woman from eating of the tree of life, as well as resisting the temptation himself.

Furthermore, in their fallen state, both Adam and the Woman do the RIGHT THING, confess and testify TRUTHFULLY of their sin at their trial, and have the sheer guts to finger Satan as the real villain and instigator.
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Don't miss the most salient point:

There was ZERO intervention from God when our father and mother made the RIGHT DECISIONS after the fall.
OR the wrong decisions before the fall either!

Their free will reigned supreme in their predicament.
Not only that, Satan had free will to cause chaos in the garden.
And God had free will to do all that He did when He intervened.

All three parties demonstrate the free will principle.

Free will is the INITIAL CONDITION demonstrated in this drama.
 
cv5

cv5

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Cameron143 said:
Save your bluster. It was God who came to them while they were shamefully hiding and passing blame on anybody else and who shed blood on their behalf and provided a suitable covering for them. Both these representing the shed blood of Christ and the righteousness of Christ. It was God who initiated, and God who provided salvation. It's always about God.
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More clueless rubbish from you.

I provided 20 hours of lectures as background material for our earlier debate. Which you rejected.

You have another 30 hours just for starters here. Which you will again reject. Wallow in your ignorance if you so CHOOSE.

And I shall leave you with this....which you will again ignore, just as you ignored Jesus warnings to WATCH!
Those lectures......are the gold. If you did not figure that out.

Rev 3:16
So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
Rev 3:18
I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
 
cv5

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Cameron143 said:
and passing blame on anybody else
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An unbiblical lie.

Failure to rightly comprehend Genesis 3 is a common feature for the "vomit" Laodicean Church.
As is the denial of the soon Coming and the command to WATCH!
 
cv5

cv5

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Cameron143 said:
Save your bluster. It was God who came to them while they were shamefully hiding and passing blame on anybody else and who shed blood on their behalf and provided a suitable covering for them. Both these representing the shed blood of Christ and the righteousness of Christ. It was God who initiated, and God who provided salvation. It's always about God.
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Yes....you failed to do your homework and obtain the basic background material in this debate as well.
Did you listen to even so much as one single minute of these? Of course you didn't.

https://christianchat.com/threads/m...k-calvinism-is-unbiblical.215127/post-5305475

Somewhere in here.....
And yes, I have auditioned EVERY ONE OF THESE LECTURES. Averaging about 3 or 4 repeat sessions per lecture.
Do you want to play pattycake here on a message board day in day out? Or actually know the Biblical truth of Jesus Christ?

Why Is He, Jesus Of Nazareth? Maybe it has something to do with Samson
Stephen A. Chronister
Aug. 13, 2017
Judges 11:29-40; Judges 13
SERIES: The Just Shall Live By Faith

Samson: The Puny Little Man. And, What does Satan gain from killing children?
Stephen A. Chronister
Aug. 20, 2017
Judges 13:2-25; Numbers 6:1-21
SERIES: The Just Shall Live By Faith

Samson, Blindness, Milk, Honey, Gate, Rapture, North Korea, Fusion, Fission, Atheism,
Stephen A. Chronister
Sept. 10, 2017
Genesis 29:33; Judges 14:12-20
SERIES: The Just Shall Live By Faith

The Samson Riddle. It's a hard saying. Does that sound familiar?
Stephen A. Chronister
Sept. 17, 2017
Genesis 3:1-16; Judges 14
SERIES: The Just Shall Live By Faith

Samson: Antichrist or Christ? Okay, trick question. But did you ever wonder about thi
Stephen A. Chronister
Sept. 24, 2017
Genesis 3; Judges 13
SERIES: The Just Shall Live By Faith

Samson: It's About Christ! The last lecture in the Romans Series. What's next?
Stephen A. Chronister
Nov. 5, 2017
Judges 14:6; Romans 1:17
SERIES: The Just Shall Live By Faith
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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cv5 said:
More clueless rubbish from you.

I provided 20 hours of lectures as background material for our earlier debate. Which you rejected.

You have another 30 hours just for starters here. Which you will again reject. Wallow in your ignorance if you so CHOOSE.

And I shall leave you with this....which you will again ignore, just as you ignored Jesus warnings to WATCH!
Those lectures......are the gold. If you did not figure that out.

Rev 3:16
So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
Rev 3:18
I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
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You should take your own advice.
 
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