Mike Winger's "Why I think Calvinism is Unbiblical"

Unfortunately, Paul was discussing in the letter to the Romans. That the way that God exercises
His divine management of humanity, which is a mystery.

Your quotation from Colossians is concerned with the revelation of the Christ.

Here is the text again.

Romans 11
For God has shut up all in disobedience, so that He may show mercy to all. Oh, the depth of the riches,
both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!

Paul stated, God's judgements and management of humanity cannot be understood.

it's no good saying doesn't choose by race, He chose the Jews.

It was the descendants of Isaac who rejected our Lord. They are enemies of the gospel for your sake but as touching ELECTION they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. For the call and gifts of God cannot be revoked.

If God reneges on His promise to Israel He might renege on His promise to YOU, He might say to the church "I commanded you to preach the gospel to every creature but 2, 000 years later and you haven't done good, behold I will cast you off and chooses another people"

God won't renege on His promise.

If Israel had not rejected Christ YOU could not be saved, So even their greatest sin has brought forth the greatest blessing ... that is how ELECTION works.

But these scriptures do not show that God predestined this for man. It is true that God hates sin, He faithfully warned the man "you'll die" But that does not say that God predestined man's fall. He foreknew but He did not predestine sin ... what He predestined was salvation.

Obviously, no one would believe in Jesus without being granted that ability to believe by God.

Yet, there are other factors at work in why someone would believe and ten others may not believe.

There are countries in the world where a Christian conversion are rare.

Wealth also may be a limiting factor, the poor seem to be favored.

Growing up in a solid Christian family is very favorable.

Here is a good example, the Bereans were highlighted because they studied the scripture.
Whereas the Corinthians were in all kinds of strife with Paul and so were the Galatians.

I think a conversion is a deep mystery.

He did not decree the sin He solemnly warned against the sin. This is your supposition creeping in again.

You quote the flood and say God damned them all except for Noah and co

What do you do with Peter who says that after Christ was raised He went and preached to those who perished before the flood?

....y'all quickly skate over scriptures like that.

This argument only applies if the 2 covenants are the same. They are not. Israel was under a covenant of works. We are under a covenant of grace. Israel failed to keep the terms of their covenant, and the sanctions of the covenant were exercised. We cannot break the terms of the new covenant because it has been fulfilled.

Jesus said "many"

I believe in election ... Abraham was elected, the first one. But others were saved. Lot was not the elect. Election is to be the means of blessing,

Not so dear friend ... the covenant of Moses was works based but the law [Paul teaches] did not annul the covenant of Abraham which is grace through faith.

I agree, there is more to sovereign grace than Calvin saw. There were no Christians among the Red Indians before the 17th century.

The covenant of Abraham was part of the covenant of grace.

It is Christ's righteousness that was imputed to Abraham for his faith.

God NEVER decreed anything evil. In fact if you would care to know, that is the primary primordial accusation of Satan.
Satan drew 1/3 of the angels with this lie......that there IS NO FREE WILL actually. And seduced the Woman with this same lie. Satan declares that God is the author of evil, and origin of evil, and is to be blamed for evil. And consequently, all sin and all sinners cannot be judged for their deeds, as God is accused of being the ultimate author if it.

Do not fall into this trap....

Rom 9:20
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

BLAMING GOD as the One who a makes a person an evil, fallen sinner.

So what are you to do now? Do what Satan did and blame God that He preordained Satan's fall?

Oh and another thing: Jesus (Who is omniscient and knows all things) continually held out His offer of love and forgiveness to Judas, right to the last second, even giving him the sop of honor at the final Passover.

Yet.....Jesus (knowing the end from the beginning) stated clearly that Judas was the son of perdition.....he would NEVER repent. Is Jesus
God guilty of anything because He (and the Trinity only) knows the end from the beginning? God cannot be guilty of being God.

The point is.....never accuse God of unfair advantage because of His attributes of foreknowledge and omniscience.
Judas and Judas alone is responsible for his failure to repent and cling onto the hem of Jesus garment. Judas had every opportunity, far more than most. And he, in an act of his own free will.....blew it. Outright refusal, denial of his sin, denial of his need for salvation.

Luk 18:10
“Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
Luk 18:11
“The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector.
Luk 18:12
‘I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’
Luk 18:13
“And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’
Luk 18:14
“I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

Pharisee: thank God that I am foreordained!
Tax collector: thank God that the merciful Lord gives room for free will repentance!

I saw your full post. That part was a strawman.

I’ve just had a thought, and now a question. Was there grace before the foundation of the world—before Jesus was crucified? Was our Father’s election under grace?

The covenant of grace began in eternity past...before the foundation of the world. It was made between God the Father and God the Son. We see God developing it through a series of covenants with individuals throughout the OT. It's full realization and fulfillment came with Christ.

But you haven't explained how it's a straw man.

Were God’s Elect chosen under the covenant of grace? I‘d say, “yes.”

Because reformed doctrine doesn't teach that Scripture has specific instructions for every activity in life (e.g. how to drive a car). This is a common strawman argument against reformed doctrine.

You said "The first rule of debate..."
The Bible has some advice for how we should and shouldn't communicate and argue. So, as a sola scriptura man, you might choose one of those texts as "The first rule of debate".

Then there are other books which perhaps contain rules for debate. Maybe you got your "first rule of debate" from one of those. You made a claim. We don't always initially supply our sources and our evidence for our claims. I was asking for such sources and evidence for your secondary claim, because you were using that claim to dismiss my challenge to your prior claim., for which you had not supplied any evidence. I made a counterclaim without evidence, putting the ball back in your court, to give some evidence, because without you giving evidence for your view, you couldn't reasonably criticise my lack of evidence for my view. Your statement was not ambiguous or difficult to understand. You claimed that 99% (almost all) of arguments against Calvinism were straw man arguments. That's not a factual statement. It is a claim designed to dismiss any criticism of Calvinism as almost certainly a straw man, so our Calvinist position is invincible.

NightTwister said:
No idea where you got that idea. It's not accurate. 99% of the arguments against reformed doctrine (which I prefer to call it) are Strawmen.