Mike Winger's "Why I think Calvinism is Unbiblical"

[Inquisitor]

the mystery which has been kept secret since the world began has been revealed in Christ!

Col_1:26 the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints.
Col_1:27 To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

Unfortunately, Paul was discussing in the letter to the Romans. That the way that God exercises
His divine management of humanity, which is a mystery.

Your quotation from Colossians is concerned with the revelation of the Christ.

Here is the text again.

Romans 11
For God has shut up all in disobedience, so that He may show mercy to all. Oh, the depth of the riches,
both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!

Paul stated, God's judgements and management of humanity cannot be understood.

 

[Evmur]

The eternal promises of God are with His spiritual seed and not those of the flesh. God saves by grace and not by race.

Rom 9:6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,
Rom 9:7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, "IN ISAAC YOUR SEED SHALL BE CALLED."
Rom 9:8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.

it's no good saying doesn't choose by race, He chose the Jews.

It was the descendants of Isaac who rejected our Lord. They are enemies of the gospel for your sake but as touching ELECTION they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. For the call and gifts of God cannot be revoked.

If God reneges on His promise to Israel He might renege on His promise to YOU, He might say to the church "I commanded you to preach the gospel to every creature but 2, 000 years later and you haven't done good, behold I will cast you off and chooses another people"

God won't renege on His promise.

If Israel had not rejected Christ YOU could not be saved, So even their greatest sin has brought forth the greatest blessing ... that is how ELECTION works.

 

[Evmur]

Your assumption is made on the notion that God loves everyone including those He justly casts into Hell but the 18 Scriptures below prove otherwise.

And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them (Lev. 20:23).​

And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you (Lev. 26:30).​

For all that do these things are an abomination unto the Lord: and because of these abominations the Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee (Deut. 18:12).​

For all that do such things, and all that do unrighteously, are an abomination unto the Lord thy God (Deut. 25:16).​

And when the Lord saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters (Deut. 32:19).​

The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity. Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the Lord will abhor the bloody and deceitful man (Ps. 5:5-6).​

For the wicked boasteth of his heart’s desire, and blesseth the covetous, whom the Lord abhorreth (Ps. 10:3).​

The Lord trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth (Ps. 11:5).​

These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren (Prov. 6:16-19).​

The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. Every one that is proud in heart is an abomination to the Lord: though hand join in hand, he shall not be unpunished (Prov. 16:4-5).​

He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the Lord (Prov. 17:15).​

The mouth of strange women is a deep pit: he that is abhorred of the Lord shall fall therein (Prov. 22:14).​

Behold, ye [i.e., idols] are of nothing, and your work of nought: an abomination is he that chooseth you (Isa. 41:24).​

Mine heritage is unto me as a lion in the forest; it crieth out against me: therefore have I hated it (Jer. 12:8).​

All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house (Hos. 9:15).​

Three shepherds also I cut off in one month; and my soul lothed them, and their soul also abhorred me (Zech. 11:8).​

I have loved you, saith the Lord. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob’s brother? saith the Lord: yet I loved Jacob, And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness. Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the Lord of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the Lord hath indignation for ever. And your eyes shall see, and ye shall say, The Lord will be magnified from the border of Israel (Mal. 1:2-5).​

As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated (Rom. 9:13).​

But these scriptures do not show that God predestined this for man. It is true that God hates sin, He faithfully warned the man "you'll die" But that does not say that God predestined man's fall. He foreknew but He did not predestine sin ... what He predestined was salvation.

 

[Inquisitor]

the real question that needs to eb asked is whether this faith/belief that saves a person comes from within man or is granted to man as a gift as seen in the verses below?

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

Php 1:29 For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,

Act 18:27 And when he desired to cross to Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him; and when he arrived, he greatly helped those who had believed through grace;

Obviously, no one would believe in Jesus without being granted that ability to believe by God.

Yet, there are other factors at work in why someone would believe and ten others may not believe.

There are countries in the world where a Christian conversion are rare.

Wealth also may be a limiting factor, the poor seem to be favored.

Growing up in a solid Christian family is very favorable.

Here is a good example, the Bereans were highlighted because they studied the scripture.
Whereas the Corinthians were in all kinds of strife with Paul and so were the Galatians.

I think a conversion is a deep mystery.

 

[Evmur]

God who decreed all things before time including the Fall. He called man whom He created in His image and likeness very good (Gen 1:31) but after the Fall He called man only evil continually (Gen 6:5) and justly killed every man, woman, child and animal in the flood bar the remnant in the Ark according to His will. His grace is seen in those He saved and not those He justly killed for their evil.

Man lost the image and likeness of God when he died spiritually and can only be made alive again in Christ who died and rose again for His people in whom the great beauty of His image is restored.

He did not decree the sin He solemnly warned against the sin. This is your supposition creeping in again.

You quote the flood and say God damned them all except for Noah and co

What do you do with Peter who says that after Christ was raised He went and preached to those who perished before the flood?

....y'all quickly skate over scriptures like that.

 

[Cameron143]

it's no good saying doesn't choose by race, He chose the Jews.

It was the descendants of Isaac who rejected our Lord. They are enemies of the gospel for your sake but as touching ELECTION they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. For the call and gifts of God cannot be revoked.

If God reneges on His promise to Israel He might renege on His promise to YOU, He might say to the church "I commanded you to preach the gospel to every creature but 2, 000 years later and you haven't done good, behold I will cast you off and chooses another people"

God won't renege on His promise.

If Israel had not rejected Christ YOU could not be saved, So even their greatest sin has brought forth the greatest blessing ... that is how ELECTION works.

This argument only applies if the 2 covenants are the same. They are not. Israel was under a covenant of works. We are under a covenant of grace. Israel failed to keep the terms of their covenant, and the sanctions of the covenant were exercised. We cannot break the terms of the new covenant because it has been fulfilled.

 

[Evmur]

The Scriptures plainly proclaim that not all are saved and those who are saved are few which is why the doctrine of sovereign election drips from just about every page of Scripture given to humble men to know that salvation belongs to the Lord and not the choice of men as you assume.

God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble therefore those who are never humbled this side of eternity will prove themselves to be reprobates who God decreed to be handed over to the way of their sin unto the goodness of His perfectly holy and just wrath which the Scriptures below confirm.

Pro 16:4 The LORD has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.

Rom 9:18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

Rom 9:22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

The Gospel is commanded to be preached to all without exception even though He has decreed to save His sheep through it and not the goats who are made more accountable for hearing it.

Jesus said "many"

I believe in election ... Abraham was elected, the first one. But others were saved. Lot was not the elect. Election is to be the means of blessing,

 

[Evmur]

This argument only applies if the 2 covenants are the same. They are not. Israel was under a covenant of works. We are under a covenant of grace. Israel failed to keep the terms of their covenant, and the sanctions of the covenant were exercised. We cannot break the terms of the new covenant because it has been fulfilled.

Not so dear friend ... the covenant of Moses was works based but the law [Paul teaches] did not annul the covenant of Abraham which is grace through faith.

 

[Evmur]

Obviously, no one would believe in Jesus without being granted that ability to believe by God.

Yet, there are other factors at work in why someone would believe and ten others may not believe.

There are countries in the world where a Christian conversion are rare.

Wealth also may be a limiting factor, the poor seem to be favored.

Growing up in a solid Christian family is very favorable.

Here is a good example, the Bereans were highlighted because they studied the scripture.
Whereas the Corinthians were in all kinds of strife with Paul and so were the Galatians.

I think a conversion is a deep mystery.

I agree, there is more to sovereign grace than Calvin saw. There were no Christians among the Red Indians before the 17th century.

 

[Cameron143]

Not so dear friend ... the covenant of Moses was works based but the law [Paul teaches] did not annul the covenant of Abraham which is grace through faith.

The covenant of Abraham was part of the covenant of grace.

 

[Mem]

are you denying that faith is given as a gift of grace and that Abraham was not accounted or imputed the faith through which God justified him?

Rom 4:9 Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness.

It is Christ's righteousness that was imputed to Abraham for his faith.

 

[cv5]

God who decreed all things before time including the Fall. He called man whom He created in His image and likeness very good (Gen 1:31) but after the Fall He called man only evil continually (Gen 6:5) and justly killed every man, woman, child and animal in the flood bar the remnant in the Ark according to His will. His grace is seen in those He saved and not those He justly killed for their evil.

Man lost the image and likeness of God when he died spiritually and can only be made alive again in Christ who died and rose again for His people in whom the great beauty of His image is restored.

God NEVER decreed anything evil. In fact if you would care to know, that is the primary primordial accusation of Satan.
Satan drew 1/3 of the angels with this lie......that there IS NO FREE WILL actually. And seduced the Woman with this same lie. Satan declares that God is the author of evil, and origin of evil, and is to be blamed for evil. And consequently, all sin and all sinners cannot be judged for their deeds, as God is accused of being the ultimate author if it.

Do not fall into this trap....

Rom 9:20
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

BLAMING GOD as the One who a makes a person an evil, fallen sinner.

So what are you to do now? Do what Satan did and blame God that He preordained Satan's fall?

Oh and another thing: Jesus (Who is omniscient and knows all things) continually held out His offer of love and forgiveness to Judas, right to the last second, even giving him the sop of honor at the final Passover.

Yet.....Jesus (knowing the end from the beginning) stated clearly that Judas was the son of perdition.....he would NEVER repent. Is Jesus
God guilty of anything because He (and the Trinity only) knows the end from the beginning? God cannot be guilty of being God.

The point is.....never accuse God of unfair advantage because of His attributes of foreknowledge and omniscience.
Judas and Judas alone is responsible for his failure to repent and cling onto the hem of Jesus garment. Judas had every opportunity, far more than most. And he, in an act of his own free will.....blew it. Outright refusal, denial of his sin, denial of his need for salvation.

 

[cv5]

Luk 18:10
“Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
Luk 18:11
“The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector.
Luk 18:12
‘I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’
Luk 18:13
“And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’
Luk 18:14
“I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

Pharisee: thank God that I am foreordained!
Tax collector: thank God that the merciful Lord gives room for free will repentance!

 

[NightTwister]

My full post was -

Where is that rule of debate in the Bible, Mr. Sola Scriptura. Or where is that rule of debate anywhere stated.

How is that a straw man. If the first rule of debate, according to you, is "The first rule of debate is to restart (sic.) your opponents argument in your own words and ask "Is that correct?" then "Where is that written anywhere in the Bible or elsewhere?" is a logical follow-up question.

Biblically, the first rule of debate could be "The first man who speaks sounds right, until another man cross-examines him." Prov. 18:17

I saw your full post. That part was a strawman.

 

[selahsays]

The covenant of Abraham was part of the covenant of grace.

I’ve just had a thought, and now a question. Was there grace before the foundation of the world—before Jesus was crucified? Was our Father’s election under grace?

 

[Cameron143]

I’ve just had a thought, and now a question. Was there grace before the foundation of the world—before Jesus was crucified? Was our Father’s election under grace?

The covenant of grace began in eternity past...before the foundation of the world. It was made between God the Father and God the Son. We see God developing it through a series of covenants with individuals throughout the OT. It's full realization and fulfillment came with Christ.

 

[PaulThomson]

I saw your full post. That part was a strawman.

But you haven't explained how it's a straw man.

 

[selahsays]

The covenant of grace began in eternity past...before the foundation of the world. It was made between God the Father and God the Son. We see God developing it through a series of covenants with individuals throughout the OT. It's full realization and fulfillment came with Christ.

Were God’s Elect chosen under the covenant of grace? I‘d say, “yes.”

 

[NightTwister]

But you haven't explained how it's a straw man.

Because reformed doctrine doesn't teach that Scripture has specific instructions for every activity in life (e.g. how to drive a car). This is a common strawman argument against reformed doctrine.

 

[PaulThomson]

Because reformed doctrine doesn't teach that Scripture has specific instructions for every activity in life (e.g. how to drive a car). This is a common strawman argument against reformed doctrine.

You said "The first rule of debate..."
The Bible has some advice for how we should and shouldn't communicate and argue. So, as a sola scriptura man, you might choose one of those texts as "The first rule of debate".

Then there are other books which perhaps contain rules for debate. Maybe you got your "first rule of debate" from one of those. You made a claim. We don't always initially supply our sources and our evidence for our claims. I was asking for such sources and evidence for your secondary claim, because you were using that claim to dismiss my challenge to your prior claim., for which you had not supplied any evidence. I made a counterclaim without evidence, putting the ball back in your court, to give some evidence, because without you giving evidence for your view, you couldn't reasonably criticise my lack of evidence for my view. Your statement was not ambiguous or difficult to understand. You claimed that 99% (almost all) of arguments against Calvinism were straw man arguments. That's not a factual statement. It is a claim designed to dismiss any criticism of Calvinism as almost certainly a straw man, so our Calvinist position is invincible.

NightTwister said:
No idea where you got that idea. It's not accurate. 99% of the arguments against reformed doctrine (which I prefer to call it) are Strawmen.