Salvation is a Free Gift.

“For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:27-29‬ ‭KJV‬

“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:3-4‬ ‭

“For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:27-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬



“If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: for which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: in the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.

But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; and have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye. And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭3:1-

“Elect in Christ “

"Behold! My Servant whom I uphold, My Elect One in whom My soul delights! I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.

- Isaiah 42:1

The Father is speaking here. “My Servant” = the Messiah. ”My Spirit = the Holy Spirit.

“Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. …he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭42:1, 3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened, and the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him,

and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭3:21-22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: and the Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; and shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD:

and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: but with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭11:1-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. ( Jesus baptism )

Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, And the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. ( the hier ) Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; Thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. ….Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, When his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭2:6-9, 12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; to proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; to appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭61:1-3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this. The Lord sent a word into Jacob, and it hath lighted upon Israel.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭9:6-8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Just between Isaiah and the psalms theres much of the gospel laid out in prophecy

“My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring? All they that see me laugh me to scorn: They shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying, He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: Let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.

I was cast upon thee from the womb: Thou art my God from my mother's belly. Be not far from me; for trouble is near; For there is none to help. My strength is dried up like a potsherd; And my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; And thou hast brought me into the dust of death.

For dogs have compassed me: The assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: They pierced my hands and my feet. I may tell all my bones: They look and stare upon me. They part my garments among them, And cast lots upon my vesture. But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me.

Deliver my soul from the sword; My darling from the power of the dog. I will declare thy name unto my brethren: In the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.

…I will pay my vows before them that fear him. The meek shall eat and be satisfied: They shall praise the LORD that seek him: Your heart shall live for ever. All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: And all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee. For the kingdom is the LORD's: And he is the governor among the nations.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭22:1, 7-8, 10-11, 15-20, 22-23, 25-28‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The main error you are making is failing to recognise that there are two resurrections on the last day: one of saints at the beginning of the last 1000 year day/millenium; and one of the unbelieving at the end of the 2000 year long day/millenium.

You are, therefore, falsely assuming that all the people referred to in all the verses above as being raised on the last day are saints. That is just not the truth. I have shown you verses that say all in the graves will rise on the last day, some to aeonous life and some to aeonous contempt.

Dan. 12:2 And many of [thy people] that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to aeonous life, and some to shame and aeonous contempt.

John 5:28-29 Marvel not ay this: for an hour is coming in which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice. and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, to the resurrection of damnation.

You have studiously ignored those verses, because they do not support your calvinistic interpretation of the above texts.

John 13:3 says that Jesus knew "that the Father had given ALL THINGS into his hands. That must include ALL MEN.

The verb in "that HE SHOULD/MIGHT GIVE aeonous life to as many as thou hast given him" is an aorist active SUBJUNCTIVE. It expresses potential, not actual action. Since "all thigs" and therefore "all men" were give to Jesus by the Father, it means that Jesus was authorised to give aeonous life to anyone to whom "He" (maybe the Father, maybe the Son) wants to give it. It does not mean that Jesus WOULD give aeonous life to all the Father had given Him. Clearly, there are many resurrected to aeonous shame, contempt and condemnation, so Jesus WILL NOT give this aeonous life to EVERYONE the Father gave Him, as we saw in John 6:28-29 and Dan 12:2.

So this verse of yours does not say what you claim it teaches. It does not say all only those who will be saved are drawn to Christ by the Father, nor given to Christ by the Father.

Again, the Father gave ALL THINGS and therefore ALL MEN into Jesus' hands. John 13:3 You claim this verse is teaching that "all that the Father gave Jesus" was only those who will be saved. And you assume the resurrection mentioned here is only of the saved on the last day. But it does not say that. Every dead person will be raised on the last day; and every dead person has been given to Jesus by the Father. This is saying that EVERY DEAD PERSON will be raised on the last day, and ALL THOSE DEAD PERSONS have been given to Christ, both the saved and the unsaved. Some He will raise to aeonous life, and some he will raise to aeonous condemnation.



Again you are falsely assuming that only the saved will be raised on the last day, and that only those who would be saved came to Jesus. But the gospels are replete with examples of people, crowds of people, coming to Jesus in the wilderness, and in towns and cities, drawn by the father's works and words expressed through Jesus, who came to him to attack Him, who hated him and eventually called for His death. I don't know what you think you mean when you say you are coming to someone to complain to them about something, or to watch them do something, or to listen to them speak. I think you would have drawn near to them geographically so as to interact with them. Many people did that who did not believe in Jesus , and will be raised from the dead on the last day to aeonous condemnation.
Everu person who had heard from the Father and and had learned from the Father, came to Jesus to watch Him and listen to Him, because His message was the same one the Father had been teaching them. But that does not mean there were not others who came to Jesus for less noble reasons. That one particular group definitely comes, does not mean others outside that roup do not also come. And clearly many outside of the "Father's hearers' and learners' group" also came to Jesus, and so must have also been drawn to Him by the Father, since "NO ONE can come to Me unless the Father draws Him."



I agree. One must believe in Jesus to have aeonous life, since aeonous life is "Knowing the only true God and Jesus whom He sent. And such will be raised by Jesus on the last day. But not only those will be raised by Jesus on the last day. Being raised on the last day does not necessarily mean one will have been raised to aeonous life.

Amen. The saints will be raised n=by the Lord. But so also will the condemned.

So, we conclude, that you have failed to show that scripture says your claim: that ONLY those who will be saved, are drawn to Jesus by the Father.

That may be so, but not all who are give to Christ by God receive aeonous life. Every person has been given to Christ by God, John 13:3, Dan. 12:2, John 5:28-29

We don't have to be born again to receive the truth and be saved; it's actually the other way around. This is a misinterpretation and misunderstanding of scripture. The only way a person can come up with such a teaching is by bending scripture to meet an already-held doctrine that must be maintained.

"So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." Romans 10:17

Saving faith comes by hearing the word of God and being convicted by the Holy Spirit. Even Lazarus, though dead, heard the Lord's voice and arose.

"But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an uninformed person comes in, he is convinced by all, he is convicted by all. And thus the secrets of his heart are revealed; and so, falling down on his face, he will worship God and report that God is truly among you." 1 Corinthians 14:24-25

So are the "unbeliever" and "uninformed" who are convicted and convinced in this passage born again unbelievers?

A spiritually dead person can hear the Gospel but he cant hear it with Spiritual discernment and understanding 2 Cor 2:14

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

False, every person given to Christ by the Father is given eternal life, and theyre the only ones Jn 17:2

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

Its the free gift to the Sheep Jn 10 27-29


27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

choose a 10th? eh?

It is true He preached to the Jews ... of that generation, that was an evil generation, a generation of Roman lick spittles, and His hard words were directed at the leaders, not the common people who heard Him gladly.

God bless you and again I say may He bless you real good.

I loved the Reformed crowd and consider myself to be in that stream. I am a lover of C.H. Spurgeon.

I have debated with Reformed Christians for years, I totally reject exclusivity when it comes to God's grace.

Your re-action is the same as all the rest of them, duck and dive like a prize fighter, weave around difficult questions. Parry.

It is undeniable that the sheep in Matt.25 are rewarded for their deeds, that some who had talents were rewarded for their prudence while others were condemned for their indolence ... that some names were in the book of life at the Great White Throne by reason of deeds.

Yet WE are saved by grace alone through faith ... does the bible contradict itself? never.

Then there must be an answer and we should seek to find it and not dance around it. Otherwise we will dealing out hell fire and damnation left and right.

There are answers.

You seem to assume it's necessary for a person to give to a church before they can be called a true Christian. You also seem to be assuming the only way to give to God is to tithe or give to a church. As I understand it, a person is only obliged to provide financially to someone who has provided to them spiritually. A person is not obligated to attend some congregation who isn't feeding them spiritually just so they can say they're giving to God. God would rather that person feed the homeless or give to the poor in other ways. But I'm probably just a pseudo Christian with an evil spirit, so what do I know.

Some churches and ministries one should not give to.

Proverbs 22:16-23 New King James Version (NKJV)He who oppresses the poor to increase his riches, And he who gives to the rich, will surely come to poverty.

Good morning, @Evmur

What deeds, in your opinion, are represented in the talents?

I don't believe that to be correct. There cannot be a literal 1000 years after the last trump because after it sounds, there is time no longer. The last trump is the sounded by the seventh angel, upon which sounding, "the kingdoms of this world are become (the kingdoms) of our Lord, and of His Christ" and time exists no longer. At that sounding, and at that sounding alone, the resurrections occur. So, the "1000 years" is a symbolic timeframe that must take place only before the seventh angel sounds, not after it, as the below verses demonstrate. I will try to address your other comments later as time permits.

[1Co 15:52-54 KJV]
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

[Rev 8:2 KJV] 2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

[Rev 10:6-7 KJV]
6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

[Rev 11:15 KJV] 15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

I think that I neglected to mention in my prior post that the seventh angel and the sounding of his trump, is the last and final trump.
But feel free to reply to these posts whenever ready.

After rereading your comment, maybe I am not understanding how you meant the 1000 year day/millennium relative to the last day. Please clarify.

I think you know that I agree with brightflame52 in his post 612 where he says the natural man, before he has been born again, can hear, but cannot discern what is said, and thinks it to be foolishness.

1 Cor 2:14.

Keep it in context. In Rom 8: 30, If Jesus is what Paul and Peter are talking about, then why do they use the word "them" three tines in this verse?

It is the same "them" that is in Rom 8:1, who are them which are in Christ Jesus.

Yeah israel was blinded but he selected a remnant in order that they would preach the gospel to the world beginning at jeruswlem ( great commission )

“And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; And seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, And their ears are dull of hearing, And their eyes they have closed; Lest at any time they should see with their eyes, And hear with their ears, And should understand with their heart, And should be converted, and I should heal them. But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13:14-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.

…. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭11:1-2, 5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem. And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken.

Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples. And I will wait upon the LORD, that hideth his face from the house of Jacob, and I will look for him. Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭8:14-18‬ ‭

“your iniquities, and the iniquities of your fathers together, saith the LORD, which have burned incense upon the mountains, and blasphemed me upon the hills: therefore will I measure their former work into their bosom. Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all. And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭65:7-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬