Did Jesus Have an Advantage over Pre-Fall Adam During the Incarnation?

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posthuman

posthuman

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#201
sawdust said:
during the Incarnation He stops acting as God.
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where is the evidence of that?

instead i see Him doing things only God can do the whole time, searching the hearts of men, commanding every detail of His creation at will, forgiving sin, knowing all things, having all wisdom, giving Himself as atonement for the whole world, casting demons out of deaf mutes, etc.

none of these are things a mere human can do. they all prove His deity, over and over. even the way He died convinced the Roman guard He is God.

just because He isn't creating universes constantly doesn't make Him not-being-God. :p
 
2ndTimeIsTheCharm

2ndTimeIsTheCharm

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#203
sawdust said:
I appreciate Jesus is the One you say but during the Incarnation He laid aside His right to act as God so He could be as a man in all ways like us yet without sin. He would not have been like us in all ways except for sin if He acted on the basis of His Deity.

You need to compare apples with apples.

Romans 5:15
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!
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I understand what you mean. Jesus didn't use His God powers, but as you had mentioned in a previous post, I think, He did all the miracles through the Holy Spirit.

He did this to show us mere mortals how to live a victorious, godly life abiding in the Holy Spirit as He did while on earth, to show us it is possible to please God even if we don't have innate God powers!

Philippians 2:
6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!

....

Philippians 2:12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.


🍱
 
P

PaulThomson

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posthuman said:
i contend that if He is God eternally there is no such thing as this "ceasing to functionally be God" notion you suggest.

consider for example you are a bus driver.
you quit your job, your license is revoked, and you cut off your arms and legs so that you cannot possibly drive a bus even if you tried.
are you still a bus driver?
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Do you believe one ever-existing omnipotent Person among three ever-existing omnipotent Persons is incapable of surrendering the exercise of His own omnipotence, in order to become human and rely on the omnipotence of the other two Persons; and in the understanding that after dying as a human, the other two omnipotent Persons will resurrect Him and reinvest Him with His previously surrendered omnipotence?

If you do, on what basis do you presume to tell God He can't do that?
 
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PaulThomson

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cv5 said:
Did you forget? His Glory was ALWAYS there......but it was "veiled" under flesh. Which veil was removed at the Transfiguration for the sake of the Apostles.

Just like the Ark of The Covenant was veiled in the days of the Tabernacle in the wilderness.
(Yes the Ark itself is an intentional type of Christ.)
Just like the Holy of Holy's was veiled behind the curtain.
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How do you know it was His Glory, rather than the glory of the Father and Holy Spirit in Him, that they saw on the mount of transfiguration? That glory is now the glory He has Himself with the Father and the Spirit, so the apostles writing after resurrection Sunday, were able to call it His glory after resurrection Sunday, because He had received back from the Father the glory He had had with the Father before the foundation of the world, according to His prayer in John 17:5.
 
cv5

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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#207
sawdust said:
You are still not separating His Deity from His humanity in action. He never stops being God and man but during the Incarnation He stops acting as God.
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Except when He is commanding the howling winds to cease, the raging waves to still, commanding trees to whither, raising to life formerly deceased people, creating massive amounts of food out of thin air, and healing the multitudes.

And let's not forget about Jesus resurrecting Himself. According to the plan He had formulated before the foundation of the world, before time was created.

And since God is One, all of the Trinity agreed upon doing all of these things.
 
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PaulThomson

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Charlie_2024 said:
if He obeys the Father does that mean He is no longer God.
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If someone (Christ, Paul, Peter) obeys the Father, does that mean they are omnipotent? If someone (Christ, Paul, Peter) does a miracle, does that mean they must be omnipotent? If someone rises from the dead (Christ, Lazarus, the Nain widow's son) does that mean they must be omnipotent?
 
cv5

cv5

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#209
PaulThomson said:
How do you know it was His Glory, rather than the glory of the Father and Holy Spirit in Him, that they saw on the mount of transfiguration? That glory is now the glory He has Himself with the Father and the Spirit, so the apostles writing after resurrection Sunday, were able to call it His glory after resurrection Sunday, because He had received back from the Father the glory He had had with the Father before the foundation of the world, according to His prayer in John 17:5.
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Oh I definitely know that it was His own glory veiled in His own flesh.

Because of the many many Old Testament types that I alluded to earlier. Did you miss those posts?
 
cv5

cv5

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#210
PaulThomson said:
If someone (Christ, Paul, Peter) obeys the Father, does that mean they are omnipotent? If someone (Christ, Paul, Peter) does a miracle, does that mean they must be omnipotent? If someone rises from the dead (Christ, Lazarus, the Nain widow's son) does that mean they must be omnipotent?
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Restraining omnipotence does not mean eliminating omnipotence.

This restraint of course was scripted in eternity past to fulfill all prophecy. By design and consent.
 
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PaulThomson

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Charlie_2024 said:
I'm not talking about slavery to sinners, I'm talking about the freedom Christ's slaves enjoy. We never need to ask anything and everything is prepared for us. We just enjoy the fruits of His glorious victory on our behalf
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You made a blanket statement about slaves. If you made a mistake and stated your case poorly, the appropriate response is not post hoc emendation. It is to admit you made a mistake, misspoke, and then state what you think you should have said.
 
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PaulThomson

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cv5 said:
Oh I definitely know that it was His own glory veiled in His own flesh.

Because of the many many Old Testament types that I alluded to earlier. Did you miss those posts?
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Your certainty concerning your preferred option does not exclude the option that the glory was not His own at the time.
 
2ndTimeIsTheCharm

2ndTimeIsTheCharm

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#213
cv5 said:
Except when He is commanding the howling winds to cease, the raging waves to still, commanding trees to whither, raising to life formerly deceased people, creating massive amounts of food out of thin air, and healing the multitudes.

And let's not forget about Jesus resurrecting Himself. According to the plan He had formulated before the foundation of the world, before time was created.

And since God is One, all of the Trinity agreed upon doing all of these things.
Click to expand...

I think the original poster just wanted to know if all the things Jesus did was done in the power of the Holy Spirit and not of Himself.

So all those things you've mentioned then were done in the power of the Holy Spirit. Because before He started His three-year ministry, the Bible doesn't talk about Jesus doing any miracles until after He was baptized and the Holy Spirit visibly descended on Him.


🍱
 
cv5

cv5

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2ndTimeIsTheCharm said:
I think the original poster just wanted to know if all the things Jesus did was done in the power of the Holy Spirit and not of Himself.

So all those things you've mentioned then were done in the power of the Holy Spirit. Because before He started His three-year ministry, the Bible doesn't talk about Jesus doing any miracles until after He was baptized and the Holy Spirit visibly descended on Him.
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The Trinity are indivisible. The Bible clearly states that Jesus resurrected Himself. That he was resurrected by the Father. And that He was resurrected by the Holy Ghost.

God is One, therefore Jesus can say that "if you have seen Me you have seen the Father".

Oh and another thing: Jesus wasn't simply born. He arrived. He visited his people. He tabernacled among us. Keyword Tabernacle.

Is that of any help to you?
 
cv5

cv5

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PaulThomson said:
Your certainty concerning your preferred option does not exclude the option that the glory was not His own at the time.
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Oh but it's certainly was His own glory.

If you fail to understand the OT types, that is your problem not mine. You know........types like "tabernacle".
 
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PaulThomson

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posthuman said:
i contend that if He is God eternally there is no such thing as this "ceasing to functionally be God" notion you suggest.

consider for example you are a bus driver.
you quit your job, your license is revoked, and you cut off your arms and legs so that you cannot possibly drive a bus even if you tried.
are you still a bus driver?
Click to expand...
"God" is not a set of abilities. God is the Person or Persons, (or impersonal force, for some) who pre-existed all things and created all things.
A better parallel would be: the Father of three daughters, who castrates Himself so he can no longer father more children, is He still a Father.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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#218
cv5 said:
Except when He is commanding the howling winds to cease, the raging waves to still, commanding trees to whither, raising to life formerly deceased people, creating massive amounts of food out of thin air, and healing the multitudes.

And let's not forget about Jesus resurrecting Himself. According to the plan He had formulated before the foundation of the world, before time was created.

And since God is One, all of the Trinity agreed upon doing all of these things.
Click to expand...
Where in scripture does it state that Jesus raised Himself from the dead?
 
cv5

cv5

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#219
Cameron143 said:
Where in scripture does it state that Jesus raised Himself from the dead?
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For pity sake man pick up that Bible and read it. It's everywhere.

And never forget: no one kills Jesus.
No one did kill Jesus. No one can kill Jesus. Jesus is absolutely unkillable.

Jesus laid down his life of his own free will. Not only did he.......he had to. There was no other option.
 
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PaulThomson

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Cameron143 said:
You don't believe Jesus could refrain from exercising His divinity while simultaneously living in the power of the Holy Spirit?
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God can't do things that humans think are unGodlike. He's not that omnipotent. :sarcasm:
 
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