Can the nonelect ever be born-again? (2 Kings 22:27) With the elect thou wilt be elect: and with the perverse thou wilt be perverted.

She thinks she believes correct doctrine to.

You both can;t be right. so when you make a comment like you did "sin of presumption" You just tear yourself down.. and make yourself a hypocrite

John Calvin was a murderous (insert word not allowed on CC) and retained much of his Catholic heritage

Actually though, even Calvin would be surprised at some of the things that are supposed to be from him in origin

Calvin is actually in the dumpster when it comes to what the Bible states

Actually I am fully clothed with the righteousness of Christ

Are you?! Let's use our common sense that the Lord gave us.

Say a righteous man has four children, a true believer. So he has four children. And he looks at his children and for no reason whatsoever he decides that two of them he hates. Two of his children he gives the best of education, the best of clothes, toys and food. He gives them his time and his love and care. Yet the two he hates get none of that. Eventually someone notices the vast difference and they call in the authorities to try and see what the issue is.

So they sit the man down and say "we noticed two of your children are flourishing. They are doing well in school, they seem to eat well, their clothes are well kept, it's clear that you care well for them. And the father beams with delight and says "Yes, I love my children". Ok they say, but you have two other children. The man nods. And they aren't doing as well. They don't do well in school at all, they look malnourished, their clothes are torn and dirty, it's clear that they are neglected. "Oh, the father says "that's because I hate them!" "Excuse me", the authorities say. "Oh yes, I hate them. I just created them to starve them and abuse them. I give them no help at all. In fact, I want them to die". "But why?" They exclaim, what have they done to deserve that abuse?!" " No reason at all. Nothing they have done. I just chose two and those are the ones I hate."

Now, don't throw Calvin at me. Don't go searching for verses. Answer this one question, "Is that a good father"? Explain how that can be considered a good person, let alone a father. Do you think authorities would allow this man to keep his children? Yet you believe that this is God. Yes, we have very different beliefs about what a good Father is. And if you had a father like that and you believe that is a good father, I feel very sorry for you.


Calvin was just a man. He was no closer to God than you or me. You say you don't believe in a pope. We agree on that point 100%. But don't make Calvin your pope. No, I don't respect that millions of Christians are under the bondage of false doctrine. The Bible never says respect false doctrine. The people, I want them to be free and to know the truth.


He didn't fail in His mission. He died for the sins of all. The fact that some don't accept His free gift doesn't mean that God failed. We fail Him, not the other way round. You say " why would someone turn down the gift of salvation?" Because they love their sin, they believe they have time, they will get saved later. That's why the Word says "now is the day of salvation". God NEVER fails, we fail Him.

Well I been thinking about you Charlie again I have.

I can't forget how you touch my heart the first time I spoke with you.

There's still a care in my heart for you Charlie, but I'm not sure about this discussion,

Where it leads I can only imagine people could start to think bad about people or themselves. I don't think it is a necessary approach.

I'm not one to go there and think why God hates this or why God hates that really.

I just know all life is his life, that I must know

What he does with his life is out of my hands, I can only do as he commands.

I will ask this, did he say esau I have hated or essay I hated all together.

I'm not getting what he hated, did he hate something bad essay had done.

When God say he hates wickedness and he says if a man can turn from there wicked ways I will love them who's he talking to.

He talking to wicked people Charlie

He overseeing there wicked deeds they do and still showing love whilst they do wicked things he hates.

But he says you have to to turn from them.

What did he say esau I have hated for.

Did he hate the idea esau should be chosen to have first rights for some reason.

Did God hate Esau the person .

How about you Charly what would you say.

I mean the times have you said I hate something when you probably would have said I never like that

Do you believe it is necessary to believe correct/sound doctrine?

I was going to God for you. I asked him and he said in the last day I will put my people in the left and on the right and settle dispute amongst nations.

He also says he will do what he needs to do.

I know that people say this and that about me but he says for most people I give warning.

So you may not like to hear but when you sin you are of the devil to Charly and me too

It is a metaphor.

If God chastise you he can do what he do to Saul and hand you the wilderness for punishment.

So me too this is why I go to him.

But I go for you to.

Because this i feal is not good what theese reformers have done to you Charlie

God said He hated Esau while he was still in the womb, so you don't think that a unborn baby is human. What are you on about man, make some sense and stop using childish puzzles

You'll need to be more specific, I'm not sure what you didn't understand in my reply.

That's speaking about the elect of God, as nobody else turns away from their wickedness except for the elect of God

I don't know for sure but it could be David Copperfield, they tell me he's a pretty good magician so maybe it was him

Again, many say David Copperfield is a good candidate but of' course nobody knows for sure

Yes everyone says what you say but nobody has been able to find any alternatives. So nothing changes, the issue has divided the Church for the past 500 years and the worlds greatest theologians have been fiercely debating each other. So if they can't find a consensus or the truth of the matter, then how are us garden variety novices supposed to.

It all comes down to personal choice, we can choose one of the two sides and run with it and defend it to the grave. Everyone does what is right in his own eyes. They say the truth is the first casualty in every battle, so we must deal with the reality of the issue. We can't sit on the fence in a war.

That's OK, everyone claims to be a Child of God, but all 40,000 denominations oppose each other and accuse the others of teaching heresies. Welcome to denominationalism, hope you enjoy your stay. Please try to tolerate those who oppose you and accuse you of heresy

She trust in her private interpretation and wisdom to discern the gospel message. I just pointed out that there are thousands of conflicting interpretations of the gospel, and that one should not lean on their own understanding and wisdom as human reasoning always leads to a false doctrines.

All of that is pure Calvinism, I apologize for mistaking you for an Arminian. Everything you said and quoted confirms that salvation is of the Lord and man can add nothing to it. That's pure Calvinism, I welcome you and hope you enjoy your stay with us

I disagree with everything you say, as I have an opposite view to yourself.

You do the usual thing those who have no point to make, or anything of value to add. You just attack the man instead of presenting a valid argument.

I notice you have nothing against John Calvin's interpretation of the gospel message, but you just hate the man. That makes me very suspicious of you and shows that you afraid of John Calvin and the only logical reason for your fear is that he exposes the false doctrine you hold to.

You're very unsure of your faith if a dead man threatens you. This makes me think John is right and you're wrong, because you haven't found any fault with his interpretation so you just hate it because it exposes yours.

You claim to be fully clothed with the righteousness of Christ, but I see the opposite in you

Wow man, talk about a confused, contradictory and incoherent view. You contradict yourself every minute.

First you accuse Calvin's God of being an evil monster, then you turn around justify that monstrous false god. You can't have it both ways, God is either good or He's evil.

Firstly Calvinists don't believe in that evil God who creates people for the purpose of sadistic torture. That god only exists in your imagination and not in the bible.

God doesn't punish innocent people, so your accusation is unbiblical and us Calvinists never claimed any such ridiculous thing.

You need to show me where Calvinist theology makes any such foolish claim. Then you need to deal with your contradictory statement, that God punishes people because they love their sin.

First you claim that God saved all people, because you deny that He failed in His mission to save all on the cross, then you turn around and say but He failed because He has to cast so many into hell because He failed to save all.

You make no sense at all, you twist and turn, duck and weave but you can't accept what God has revealed about Himself.

Jesus Christ was the most hated person in all of human history. He is more hated today than ever, because He is the truth and men love darkness and sin.

It's obvious you don't know anything about Calvinism or Arminianism, so you're just reacting emotionally. I would suggest you have a quick read to enlighten yourself of what both have to say before you act as the judge, jury and executioner. We don't need anymore lounge chair critics.

I'm sorry but there's no way to sugar coat the awful truth. God hates Esau because God knows that Esau was reprobate, meaning he would never repent because God chose to never give him the gift of repentance.

This sounds cruel from our perspective, because God said I hated him before he was born and before he did any good or bad. This hatred was not only directed at Esau but at billions upon billions of men, women, children and unborn babies at the time of Noah's flood. God said I will destroy them off the earth and He only saved 8 people and the rest of humanity were killed.

His hatred still abides on the majority of the inhabitants of the earth to this day. He's coming back as a Man of war to kill billions again. Read the book of revelation and you will find that this coming blood bath will be worse than anything else in history. The blood will flow 7 feet high, so were talking many billions slaughtered.

I think it's important to consider the fact that God sees the future as if it had already happened, so we can assume that God saw that Esau and all the other reprobate people He hates were going to grow up to be wicked and rebellious people.

We don't know who's who, but God knows everyone as if they have lived to an old age and died, before they're born. Most Christians believe that God lied when He claimed to be omniscient and omnipresent, they just refuse to give God that much power so they create a false weak god in their mind, and keep him as a pet or a Genie in a bottle.

Who is man to tell God what He can and can't do, God has the right to do as He will's with His creation. He makes vessels fit for destruction and He makes others to love.

so you say that Christ did not die to secure salvation for anyone but instead died to potentially save all people based upon their choice and not His. Is that correct?

It is not a hard thing to understand that God loves justice so much that He killed His only Son at the hands of evil men in order to secure salvation for His people and He justly kills about 180,000 people every day which is around two people every second because the soul that sins shall die and the wages of sin is death (Eze 18:4,20, Rom 6:23).

God loves those who love Him and they only do so because He first loved them (Pro 8:17, 1 Jn 4:19).