Predestination is misunderstood...

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Genez

Genez

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maxamir said:
the faith that God grants to His people is a gift of grace but those who look to their faith to be saved rather than the grace which grants that faith do so as a work in which they can boast and therefore prove that their faith is not from God.

Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all
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Faith comes by hearing the Word of Christ...... Romans 10:17

Faith is Bible knowledge that has been understood and believed.
 
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PaulThomson

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maxamir said:
and you do not yet see yourself as God sees you, for you seem to still compare yourself to others and somehow think that you have some kind of goodness in you that can choose God whenever you want which proves that you are still judicially blinded by God and will only ever see unless He humbles you for God resists the proud and only gives grace to the humble.

I pray that the Lord gives you absolutely no peace until you are brought to see that all of your supposed righteous deeds are only filthy rags before a thrice holy God and sincerely hope it doesn't take a tragedy in your life such as Job experienced to make you see who you really are.

Isa_64:6 But we are all like an unclean thing, And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags; We all fade as a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, Have taken us away.

Job_40:4 "Behold, I am vile; What shall I answer You? I lay my hand over my mouth.
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The exhaustive divine pre-determinist idea of Goodness, because no one is perfectly good but God, is to think up all kinds of tortures that can be done on women, children, babies, animals, and men, and then to create a world where a whole litany of those terrors are scripted by the only really Good One to be executed on and by the creatures made, most of whom the Good One has destined from the beginning to be tormented in fire forever for doing the things he designed and designated them for. That's not a high bar for me to achieve, to be better than the perfectly Good One of your religion. Your imagined creator is nothing like Jesus.

I have a much more kind, compassionate, loving, guileless and worship-worthy Creator to serve than yours.. My Creator looks more like Jesus Christ than yours, who sounds more like the being we call satan.
 
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PaulThomson

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maxamir said:
you foolishly think that sin is simply something that a person does but the reason why a person sins is because they are born sinners under God's just curse and slaves to it. If you don't believe that, then I challenge you to try to stop sinning.
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That's what your god is telling you. Your god has been a liar and a murderer from the beginning. I don't listen to him. Jesus' sheep know Him and listen to His voice. I listen to what Jesus says about babies, and that is nothing like what you are hearing from your god.
 
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PaulThomson

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Magenta said:
What Scripture actually says is:

And now, lest he reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever...” Therefore
the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken.

There is zero indication anywhere that Adam had eaten from the Tree of Life, and every indication that he
would have lived forever after if he had. Sorry, Paul, but your position holds no water, as the saying goes.

God breathed life into Adam. You are essentially saying Adam had to eat from the Tree of Life to be alive.

I've seen others try to float this theory before. It does not float.
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This is ironic.
Someone makes an absolutist claim that scripture does not state outright, but the poster has inferred from the wording of a certain English translation of the Bible.
I am providing a different possible interpretation of Gen 3 using the Hebrew text that counters that person's absolutist claim.
You join in to make the same absolutist claim without having that interpretation specifically stated in the text, even in the English text, and you accuse me of over reaching because I merely suggested that there is at least one alternative interpretation that does not support your and the original poster's inferences.
And in your mind, I am the dogmatist for suggesting ideas that are not clearly stated in the text could be the case and change our conclusions re what happened; and you are the reasonable one sticking only to the text while adding your ideas to the text that are not there.
 
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7thMoon

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Magenta said:
What Scripture actually says is:

And now, lest he reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever...” Therefore
the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken.

There is zero indication anywhere that Adam had eaten from the Tree of Life, and every indication that he
would have lived forever after if he had. Sorry, Paul, but your position holds no water, as the saying goes.

God breathed life into Adam. You are essentially saying Adam had to eat from the Tree of Life to be alive.

I've seen others try to float this theory before. It does not float.
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A Rabbi has told me the tree of gnosis of good and evil was actually the tree of life. Depending on somethings, it was probably a tree of lifegiving, but it is meant to prevent death. That is the consequences for mankind not being able to keep his eyes shut. The punishment is harsh, but having no sight may have been worse.
 
Magenta

Magenta

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PaulThomson said:
This is ironic.
Someone makes an absolutist claim that scripture does not state outright, but the poster has inferred from the wording of a certain English translation of the Bible.
I am providing a different possible interpretation of Gen 3 using the Hebrew text that counters that person's absolutist claim.
You join in to make the same absolutist claim without having that interpretation specifically stated in the text, even in the English text, and you accuse me of over reaching because I merely suggested that there is at least one alternative interpretation that does not support your and the original poster's inferences.
And in your mind, I am the dogmatist for suggesting ideas that are not clearly stated in the text could be the case and change our conclusions re what happened; and you are the reasonable one sticking only to the text while adding your ideas to the text that are not there.
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I gave a couple of examples when you asked, of where you go beyond what Scripture plainly states. So your pretense of repenting of doing such was just that. A pretense. I should have known. You will not even admit what Scripture actually says. Which is that if Adam and Eve had eaten from the Tree of Life, they would have lived forever. No, you just skip over that like it is not even there. Instead you pretend that is not there, and that deliberate omission of what is explicitly stated in the text is the only thing that props up your alternative view.

So much for irony.
 
Magenta

Magenta

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7thMoon said:
A Rabbi has told me the tree of gnosis of good and evil was actually the tree of life. Depending on somethings, it was probably a tree of lifegiving, but it is meant to prevent death. That is the consequences for mankind not being able to keep his eyes shut. The punishment is harsh, but having no sight may have been worse.
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Is your rabbi is saying there was only one tree when Scripture says there were two? Why would he do that?
 
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7thMoon

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Magenta said:
Is your rabbi is saying there was only one tree when Scripture says there were two? Why would he do that?
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There were several trees, but the tree of life and the tree of gnosis are supposedly one and same. The use of the article in Hebrew would also be interesting. Furthermore, I don't have a Rabbi, but Judaism tends to agree on this interpretation.
 
Magenta

Magenta

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7thMoon said:
There were several trees, but the tree of life and the tree of gnosis are supposedly one and same. The use of the article in Hebrew would also be interesting.
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Yes yes there were other trees but we were only speaking of two which your rabbi says was one. Weird.

I hope you don't listen to him.
 
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7thMoon

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Magenta said:
Yes yes there were other trees but we were only speaking of two which your rabbi says was one. Weird.

I hope you don't listen to him.
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I don't have to agree with him, but the tree which Eve ate from gave her sight. There is the implication that it is a tree of life, but the interpretation is required.
 
Magenta

Magenta

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7thMoon said:
I don't have to agree with him, but the tree which Eve ate from gave her sight.
There is the implication that it is a tree of life, but the interpretation is required.
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What kind of sight do you think Eve received from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?
 
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7thMoon

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Magenta said:
What kind of sight do you think Eve received from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?
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I typoed again. The interpretation is not required. And the answer to your question is eyesight.
 
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PaulThomson

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7thMoon said:
A Rabbi has told me the tree of gnosis of good and evil was actually the tree of life. Depending on somethings, it was probably a tree of lifegiving, but it is meant to prevent death. That is the consequences for mankind not being able to keep his eyes shut. The punishment is harsh, but having no sight may have been worse.
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That would mean the "and" in Gen. 2:9 could be translated as "even".
i.e. that "The tree of life was in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" could be "The tree of life was in the midst of the garden, even the tree of the knowledge of good and evil."

Does this rabbi have other examples where Wa- means "even" ?

Gen 19:4 says "But before they lay down the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed round the house..."

here the sense of "even" is conveyed simply bu apposition of the men of the city, the men of sodom.

If Genesis 2: 9 meant the tree of life was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, it could have said :" The tree of life, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, was in the midst of the garden."

The same with Gen 19:9 "And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot."

The same with Gen. 21:10 "The son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac."

Likewise, Gen. 23:7, and 23:10, and 26:28, and Gen 46:18, and 47:21, and 49:22, and Ex. 3:1....
 
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7thMoon

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PaulThomson said:
That would mean the "and" in Gen. 2:9 could be translated as "even".
i.e. that "The tree of life was in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" could be "The tree of life was in the midst of the garden, even the tree of the knowledge of good and evil."

Does this rabbi have other examples where Wa- means "even" ?

Gen 19:4 says "But before they lay down the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed round the house..."

here the sense of "even" is conveyed simply bu apposition of the men of the city, the men of sodom.

If Genesis 2: 9 meant the tree of life was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, it could have said :" The tree of life, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, was in the midst of the garden."

The same with Gen 19:9 "And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot."

The same with Gen. 21:10 "The son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac."

Likewise, Gen. 23:7, and 23:10, and 26:28, and Gen 46:18, and 47:21, and 49:22, and Ex. 3:1....
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You make a compelling case against the Rabbis, but not against my eyesight theory.
 
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7thMoon

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PaulThomson said:
That would mean the "and" in Gen. 2:9 could be translated as "even".
i.e. that "The tree of life was in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" could be "The tree of life was in the midst of the garden, even the tree of the knowledge of good and evil."

Does this rabbi have other examples where Wa- means "even" ?

Gen 19:4 says "But before they lay down the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed round the house..."

here the sense of "even" is conveyed simply bu apposition of the men of the city, the men of sodom.

If Genesis 2: 9 meant the tree of life was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, it could have said :" The tree of life, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, was in the midst of the garden."

The same with Gen 19:9 "And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot."

The same with Gen. 21:10 "The son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac."

Likewise, Gen. 23:7, and 23:10, and 26:28, and Gen 46:18, and 47:21, and 49:22, and Ex. 3:1....
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It would seem even would be good translation when the noun is doubled though.
 
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PaulThomson

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Magenta said:
I gave a couple of examples when you asked, of where you go beyond what Scripture plainly states. So your pretense of repenting of doing such was just that. A pretense. I should have known. You will not even admit what Scripture actually says. Which is that if Adam and Eve had eaten from the Tree of Life, they would have lived forever. No, you just skip over that like it is not even there. Instead you pretend that is not there, and that deliberate omission of what is explicitly stated in the text is the only thing that props up your alternative view.

So much for irony.
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But the scripture does not say "what you claim it says, "If Adam and Eve had eaten from the Tree of Life, they would have lived forever."

It is quite possible that I have breached my principles at some point and noy done what I have advocated to others. I am imperfect. I asked for an example of that so that I could repent if necessary. You provided an example where I did not do what you alleged. So, I don't need to repent in that case. What was yur second alleged case?
 
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PaulThomson

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7thMoon said:
I typoed again. The interpretation is not required. And the answer to your question is eyesight.
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I did just notice that God planted for Adam and Eve in the garden every tree that is pleasant to the sight and good for food. So the only added quality to those of all the other trees offered by the serpent was "it will make you wise." Is knowing both good and evil, by doing them both, necessary to be wise?
 
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reneweddaybyday

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sawdust said:
We are saved by grace, God's power to effect His will on the basis of who and what He is, through faith, the working of the word within a believer, specifically the word of the Gospel.
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Romans 1:16 tells us that the gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation to every one who believes ... iow, it's not the faith of the one who believes that brings salvation, it is the gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation.

Folks who throw up the strawman that faith is some sort of "work in which they can boast" do not understand faith ... nor do they understand the power of gospel of Christ. (and I know you know this.)


Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it [the gospel of Christ] is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
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