Predestination is misunderstood...

A couple of thoughts I’d like to share:

I think this is a drastic overstatement/reaction to my comment. The very fact that I am referencing the importance of accepting the Gospel shows that God is the author of our salvation. I don’t think its necessary to say that God had to send his Son to die for us in our lost state, AND also has to make us believe in order for God to be needed in Salvation. In fact, ”faith” is contrasted from ”works” in scripture. So to argue that the ability to believe is essentially man earning/working out his salvation is directly contrary to how Scripture distinguishes work from grace/faith.

Also, there are plenty of Christians who do not hold to this type of predestination view on God’s sovereignty who still believe that God is both active in saving men through the cross and also helping them to accept the message. The concept of “prevenient grace” taught by Augustine and others (which essentially means “grace that precedes”) was also embraced by non-Calvinist’s such as John Wesley. His view was that the Holy Spirit prepares a persons heart to hear the Gospel so that they can understand it, but for Wesley, this drawing of the Spirit could be resisted.

Anyway, in sum, there are a lot of ways of viewing this without suggesting that one side does not accept salvation by grace as a work of God alone.

That's my point: when God frees a person, they are free indeed. There is nothing temporary about it. It's total, and it's glorious.

That's salvation. What I'm talking about is being made free to respond to God just as Adam was free to respond prior to the Fall.

You are guilty of the very thing you accuse me of. I never raised the issue that one side does not accept salvation by grace alone. You had to read that into my remarks.

One of the problems that invariably arises when the subject of salvation comes up is that people assume things of others. Another problem is found in the use of language. Often when a phrase or term is employed, it holds one understanding with one, and means something different to another. A third is that the subject of salvation is one that many become very emotional about and there are verses that seem to say opposing things on the subject.

But thanks for the discussion. Grace and peace.

I understood your point. It's not that I don't believe your scenario is possible for God. I believe when God sets a person free, He sets them completely free.

I never said you didn't understand my point. The difference between us is you think God must save a person before they can desire the light. I say they only need to have the sin nature muzzled so they can chose of their own free will whether they desire light or not. Their choice reveals whether they are a believer or an unbeliever. God promised to save believers.

Everyone sees the light, if it were not so, the world would not hate Christ, they would be oblivious to Him.

Man when left to his own strength will have his flesh continuing to dominate over his soul. The flesh unrestrained is the soul's slave master. In the natural state of the flesh having inborn control over a soul, it will leave a man having no power to choose to believe in Jesus.

God 's supernatural power. Power that we call 'grace. In effect - ties up and gags the sin nature for as long God desires to disable it.
The flesh being tied up and gagged by grace will then allow for a person's soul to freely choose what it really wants to believe.

Believe, or to reject while being free of the dominance of his flesh.... In effect.. God's grace makes a person freed from the depravity of his flesh for as long as God administers his grace power for His intended purpose when drawing someone unto salvation.

While God's grace is being "benevolently imposed" upon a person's flesh? A person's soul is released from the tyranny of his sin nature. That same sin nature, when allowed to be free, would make his soul unable stop conforming to the sin nature's depravity.

Now when one's soul by grace has been made free from the depravity of the flesh? If that soul that is being given grace, then freely chooses to reject? In that state of freedom he will be held fully accountable for his choice. The depravity of that man's flesh can not be used for his excuse when condemned. Yes... unbelievers have memorized Calvinistic thinking.

The administering of the power of His grace is why God will be free to condemn all who refuse to believe. No excuse will be accepted.
God's grace given to those who rejected salvation removes any possibility for a motion of an appeal.


In Christ ...............

Being made free from the Lake of Fire takes place once and for all, once they believe....

But,, unless a believer continues to grow in grace and knowledge?
Though saved? They might still act like an unbeliever who lays claim to believing in Christ.

Rev 22:17
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Isa 55:1
Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.

Here is the crux of the problem....
God has ordained that men MAKE A CHOICE. Of their own free will.
BTW.....most will choose "the lie", the man of sin at the time of the end of the age.

Pro 8:36
But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.

Mat 6:24
No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

I don't disagree that God calls men to respond. We simply disagree on why people choose as they do, which means we disagree on the estate of unredeemed man.

Yes we do.

So tell me: was Abel more responsive to Gods calling than Cain? And if so, why?
Did Cain make a choice of his own free will? How about Korah?

it is only those who still serve the devil that have been handed over to believe his lie that faith is the cause of salvation and not grace.

I don't look at it in terms of more responsive or less. They responded differently. They Bible at this point doesn't explain why. If we extrapolate to the NT, you already have my answer.

those who of their father the devil will always resist the Holy Spirit.


Rom 3:10 As it is written: "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NO, NOT ONE;
Rom 3:11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS; THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS AFTER GOD.
Rom 3:12 THEY HAVE ALL TURNED ASIDE; THEY HAVE TOGETHER BECOME UNPROFITABLE; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, NO, NOT ONE."
Rom 3:13 "THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN TOMB; WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY HAVE PRACTICED DECEIT"; "THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS";
Rom 3:14 "WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS."
Rom 3:15 "THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD;
Rom 3:16 DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR WAYS;
Rom 3:17 AND THE WAY OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN."
Rom 3:18 "THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES."

you just foolishly implied that the demons can be born again without realising it.

Are you saying Christ was wrong for stating this twice below?

Luk 13:3 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.
Luk 13:4 Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem?
Luk 13:5 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish."

God indeed justly hands people over to the evil they love as a demonstration of His righteousness (Rom 3:5) but if you continue reading Romans you will eventually come to Chapter 9 which states that God loves His people not because of who they are or what they do but because of who He is.

Rom 9:11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),
Rom 9:12 it was said to her, "THE OLDER SHALL SERVE THE YOUNGER."
Rom 9:13 As it is written, "JACOB I HAVE LOVED, BUT ESAU I HAVE HATED."

Jude confirms that the reprobate were marked out for condemnation before they were born.

Jud 1:4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.

and that the Lord made them to glorify His perfectly good, holy, righteous, just and eternal wrath.

Pro 16:4 The LORD has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.

Rom 9:21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
Rom 9:22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

@7thMoon