Predestination is misunderstood...

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Cameron143

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God's grace provided the setting which offered the opportunity to have faith. Grace momentarily took control over his flesh, but not his soul, to decide with his soul.

Just like we saw in Romans 1:18-23, with those who turned out to be the worst kind of reprobate. God made them able to know God is real.
Nope. It was simply an exercise of God's general grace. The grace that provides salvation produces faith.
 

sawdust

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Feb 12, 2024
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But He is not 0always fair. Fairness is not about behavior against a standard, but a behavior against another behavior.
Again your opinion that does not line up with scripture. What you call unfair Jesus said was perfectly fair. Fairness is behaviour based on righteousness. Where do you get this line it is based on another behaviour? You have not shown any scripture for such a theory.
 

sawdust

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Nope. It was simply an exercise of God's general grace. The grace that provides salvation produces faith.
More made up stuff. Grace is grace. There are not two different types of grace. It can be given in measure, but it is the same power at work. Grace does not produce faith in those unwilling to believe. The difference lies in the one responding, not the type of grace.

James 4:6
But he gives us more grace. That is why Scripture says: “God opposes the proud but shows favor to the humble.”

Based on your understanding we will have to change the most famous of all scripture.

John 3:16 (Cameron143's version)
For God so loved the world, He gave His only Son that whosoever He chooses shall not perish but have everlasting life.
 

Genez

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Oct 12, 2017
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Nope. It was simply an exercise of God's general grace. The grace that provides salvation produces faith.
Faith comes ........ "by hearing." Romans 10:17

If your flesh were still in its driver's seat?

The Word that was given to be heard would not have sunk in, even if your soul would have wanted to believe if made free to do so.

Grace takes your flesh and silences it! Shuts it down! Allowing your soul to think for itself.

While your flesh is being contained by God's power to do so (by His grace power)...
That is when your soul was being made free to decide what you are going to do with what was given to be heard.

Without grace?
One could be presented an absolutely perfect preaching.
Without grace? You would be unable to believe.

For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires
of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other,
to keep you from doing the things you want to do." Galatians 5:17​

That should tell you something..
And, that speaks of the regenerate person having this conflict.
How much more so the case for the spiritually dead unregenerate soul?

grace and peace ................
 

Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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Faith comes ........ "by hearing." Romans 10:17

If your flesh were still in its driver's seat?

The Word that was given to be heard would not have sunk in, even if your soul would have wanted to believe if made free to do so.

Grace takes your flesh and silences it! Shuts it down! Allowing your soul to think for itself.

While your flesh is being contained by God's power to do so (by His grace power)...
That is when your soul was being made free to decide what you are going to do with what was given to be heard.

Without grace?
One could be presented an absolutely perfect preaching.
Without grace? You would be unable to believe.

For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires
of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other,
to keep you from doing the things you want to do." Galatians 5:17​

That should tell you something..
And, that speaks of the regenerate person having this conflict.
How much more so the case for the spiritually dead unregenerate soul?

grace and peace ................
Faith does come by hearing. It's part of the gift of salvation. Where there is no hearing given, there is no salvation. When hearing is given, it always produces faith, and, consequently, salvation.
Let him who has an ear hear what the Spirit is saying.
 

Genez

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Oct 12, 2017
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Faith does come by hearing. It's part of the gift of salvation. Where there is no hearing given, there is no salvation. When hearing is given, it always produces faith, and, consequently, salvation.
Let him who has an ear hear what the Spirit is saying.
That sounds good....
 

maxamir

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Mar 8, 2024
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so you say here that man was created in an image that was of satan.

Based On Jesus saying to the Israelites you are of your father the devil.

But yet I have scripture confirming more than one heavenly being helped in the creation of man. When God said let us make man in our image, and you reject it after what you said 🤔

But what ye don't know at this stage is satan fell after man was created. 😊
Man was originally made in the image and likeness of God but after the Fall all are made in the image of cursed Adam (Gen 5:3) and therefore all are slaves to sin and Satan, his children, bearing his evil image unless they are born again by grace.

Scripture does not reveal when Satan was cast out of Heaven by the Creator, Elohim, but it was obviously before the fall of man.
 

maxamir

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And when the Gentiles heard....
Faith comes by hearing...
and hearing by the Word of God (Rom 10:17b).

1Co 1:21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.
 

maxamir

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No. The concept of the Trinity is based on interpretation of biblical texts, but is not a truth claim that can be tested against any of our experiences of reality. it is therefore reasonable to accept it if one sees it in scripture.

That we are born in the image of the devil, or unable to do good, is an interpretation of biblical texts by SOME, that does not match reality as we experience it. Atheist can love others and give their lives to save others. Atheists can tell the truth to their own hurt. Others logically interpret the very same texts in such a way that atheists can do good, which matches reality. So it is not reasonable to accept the assertions of SOME, that man is totally depraved or incapable of doing good.
the Trinity is not a concept but a reality that is found in Scripture. One God in three Persons, co-equal, co-eternal and co-glorious.

If you do not see the truth of total depravity then it is only because you still compare yourself to others and have not yet seen yourself as God sees you. The easiest way to prove that you are a slave to sin is to simply try to stop sinning.

trinity verses.jpg
 

maxamir

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Total depravity means incapable of doing anything acceptable to God unless God regenerates first. One only has to look at the proof texts used to support total depravity and what those using them are asserting those texts teach, to understand what those eisegetes mean by total depravity.

If one takes account of the context of the Psalms and the tenses used in "there is none good, no not one" it is written to the Jews, and says none continuously keeps on doing good. In other words, all have sinned. All need to acknowledge their sins and look in faith to God and Jesus Christ. It is not a statement that nothing anyone does is good, as total inability asserts..
On a scale from 1 to 10, please tell me where God's words in describing man after the Fall as being "only evil continually" (Gen 6:5) fit?

Sin is not simply what a person does but what a person is. All sin because they are conceived in sin (Psa 51:5) and go astray as soon as they are born (Psa 58:3) but what is more important to realise is who sin is committed against and everything that a man does that does not flow from faith to God is SIN (Rom 14:23) and that is why you need the LORD JESUS CHRIST.

total depravity.jpg
 

maxamir

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On some level I do agree with you, in the sense we are all created in the image of God.

Total depravity/original sin is easily refuted, Augustine brought Manichaeism into Christian thought and it is still unable to shake this heresy.

Cornelius, a Gentile centurion from Caesarea. The Bible says he was a devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God always (Acts 10:1-2).

In Romans 1:18 until 3:18 Paul is not teaching that man is inherently depraved. In actuality, Paul says, “that which may be known of God is manifest IN THEM; for God hath shewed it unto them” (1:19).

The human race in its fallen condition isn’t inherently depraved, for man possess both the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:22).
The definition of the image of God according to Scripture is true righteousness, holiness and an intimate knowledge of God (Eph 4:24, Col 3:10) which man lost after the Fall and confirmed by God who originally called man who was made in His image and likeness very good (Gen 1:31) but after the Fall calls him only evil continually (Gen 6:5).

Satan lied to Eve in the garden making her think that she was not really like God and today is lying to the whole world, including most who call themselves Christians into thinking that every person is still in the image of God and in doing so has completely perverted the Gospel of Christ in whom the image of God is restored.

Any image without His likeness is a counterfeit of the true image of God.

luther image.jpg
 

maxamir

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I am just going by this statement and I am just wondering if you have extrapolated out this belief that God chooses to it logical end.

The only thing that sticks in my craw is bad theology that makes God a moral monster who chooses some and leaves others in their fallen state because He did not choose them.

Now, I do not know if you adhere to this because you are not really clear on it, but when you state He chooses and allude to limited atonement I tend to think this is your view of the plan of salvation.

I will argue against this view, I find it abhorrent, so yeah it sticks in my craw not because there is something wrong with me as in I am biased/jaded but because it is objectively and biblically wrong.
It seems that you therefore think that Christ died for absolutely every person, even those He justly casts into Hell. Is that right?

The apostle Paul pondered the response of people who thought like you did in Romans 9 and it would be wise to read it in full.

Rom 9:13 As it is written, "JACOB I HAVE LOVED, BUT ESAU I HAVE HATED."
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not!
Rom 9:15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOMEVER I WILL HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOMEVER I WILL HAVE COMPASSION."
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

pink preach.jpg
 

maxamir

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Nope. It was simply an exercise of God's general grace. The grace that provides salvation produces faith.
The term general grace which is mostly known today as common grace is not found in Scripture and is not to be confused with God's good providence to all which vexed Asaph found out in Psalm 73 when he pondered the supposed blessings of the wicked only to find out that God had set them in slippery places and the good things they received only served to fill up the measure of their sin, making them more accountable before God, to store wrath for the day of wrath and fatten themselves unto His just slaughter.

herman grace.jpg
 

PaulThomson

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The army does not prepare you for battle by thrusting you into battle, and then afterwards give you basic training.
A competent army does not thrust into battle with ONLY the propositional theories of command, and without the infantryman knowing also how to perform the tasks of an infantryman, and how to evaluate situations they will face from the perspective of an infantryman. Personnel do not become commanders by passing a propositional exam only. They need to have learned to se how all the different units under their command function and are interrelated. A competent commander learns that in some situations the propositional framework they learned as a rookie are fine as a general rule, but are not one size fits all situations.
 

PaulThomson

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The army does not prepare you for battle by thrusting you into battle, and then afterwards give you basic training.
A competent army does not thrust into battle with ONLY the propositional theories of command, and without the infantryman knowing also how to perform the tasks of an infantryman, and how to evaluate situations they will face from the perspective of an infantryman. Personnel do not become commanders by passing a propositional exam only. They need to have learned to se how all the different units under their command function and are interrelated. A competent commander learns that in some situations the propositional framework they learned as a rookie are fine as a general rule, but are not one size fits all situations.
 

PaulThomson

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Every person you mentioned had a relationship with God except Cain. What were they like before the grace of God came to them?
God spoke directly to Cain in conversation, and was granted mercy. How can you say he had no relationship with God?
 

Cameron143

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The term general grace which is mostly known today as common grace is not found in Scripture and is not to be confused with God's good providence to all which vexed Asaph found out in Psalm 73 when he pondered the supposed blessings of the wicked only to find out that God had set them in slippery places and the good things they received only served to fill up the measure of their sin, making them more accountable before God, to store wrath for the day of wrath and fatten themselves unto His just slaughter.

View attachment 261549
God is good and merciful to all. Every transaction between God and man is an exercise of grace.