Are you pre-Trib, mid-Trib, or post-Trib?

What Scripture do you base a seven year tribulation?
Daniel speaks only of 1260 days, 1290 days, and 1335 days, in chapter 12.

From how I am reading what "GRACE_ambassador" wrote in his post, I don't believe he said "NO saint will suffer wrath";

instead, he said "The Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" is who was (in particular) promised not to suffer wrath (1Th5:9; 1Th1:10, etc)... not all other saints of all OTHER time periods.


"The Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (Eph1:20-23 WHEN [as to its existence]) is distinct from those who will be coming to faith in Christ FOLLOWING "our Rapture" (i.e. the 5th Seal martyrs, for one example).





"Rapture" pertains SOLELY TO "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (all those saved "in this present age [singular]"--It does not pertain to all other "saints" of all OTHER time periods; Hence, "the One delivering US [the Church which is His body] out-from THE WRATH COMING" 1Th1:10, etc)








[I don't mean to speak for "G_a" in all respects, as to what I've put in my post; I realize he and I do have slight differences as to "when" precisely "the Church which is His body" came into existence]

So you still believe there will be more than one gathering of the saints.
According to you "THE CHURCH'"will be "RAPTURED" 7 years before the FIRST RESURRECTION.
Scripture clearly states those not in the FIRST RESURRECTION will suffer the second death.

To be as clear as possible, not "more than one" RAPTURE" (or, "OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM"); but "more than one" gathering of saints, yes: the one spoken of in Matt24:29-31 / Isaiah 27:9,12-13 [/Rom11:27/Dan9:24] (at the "GREAT" trumpet) is a completely DISTINCT gathering from that of our "Rapture [IN THE AIR]" (See Isa27:9,12-13/Mt24:29-31...

...note the distinction in its manner of their gathering ["ONE BY ONE"], and in whom it pertains, in its timing, in its destination-location, and in who exactly does the gathering of them, etc)


Here's how I understand the phrase in Rev20:5 "This is the resurrection THE FIRST [ADJ]"... This is not the same as it saying "this is the FIRST TIME saints will have been resurrected":

--"first [adjective; G4413]" can mean "first IN TIME," but it can also mean "first IN QUALITY"... and since 1Cor15:23 says "[re: resurrection] But EACH in his OWN ORDER [RANK]" this means there doesn't remain only ONE at one singular point in time;
This explains also why when the TWO WITNESSES are killed and then resurrected (and ascend up into heaven) at the "6th Trumpet / 2nd Woe" point in time, at a point in time entirely distinct from when all other saints are resurrected, and yet they also are not subject to the later GWTj (second death);


--John 5:29 CONTRASTS "resurrection OF LIFE" and "resurrection OF DAMNATION / judgment" (the two distinct "qualities" of "resurrection"); "the dead / unsaved" of all times will be resurrected at the time of the GWTj (including those spoken of in Rev20:5a "the rest of the dead") and suffer "the second death"; but v.5's "THIS" ("this one here"--the ones being resurrected in 20:4b... the LAST of the martyrs to have died b/f Christ's return to the earth in Rev19) is the "resurrection OF LIFE" (the first "quality" of resurrection; Just like this same Greek word for "FIRST" Paul used of himself to say he was the "chief [G4413 - ADJ]" of sinners, and that didn't mean he was "chronologically the FIRST in TIME" as one)


--Paul (when also speaking of the resurrection of the members of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" who will have DIED prior to the point-in-time being referenced) in 1Cor15:52-54 said, "Behold I SHEW you a MYSTERY"... he's not getting ready to tell them what ALL OT SAINTS already WELL-KNEW (ex. what Job knew in Job19:25-27; what Daniel knew in Dan12:13; what Martha knew in Jn11:24)... no, but something heretofore UNKNOWN, but which Paul was given to DISCLOSE (and pertaining to/for/about "the Church which is His body"... the "WE/WE" of 1Cor15:51)


--[much more...]


And yet, we see the TWO WITNESSES resurrected at the "6th Trumpet / 2nd Woe" time-slot, i.e. at a DISTINCT point in the chronology from that of when all other saints will be resurrected... but we don't designate THEM to "be cast into the lake of fire" ("the second death") at the GWTj point in time. (This is because "the resurrection THE FIRST" is "first IN QUALITY" [that "OF LIFE"--THAT "quality"], not "first IN TIME" or the first time saints will have been resurrected... This isn't what Rev20:5 is conveying. ["But EACH in his own ORDER [/RANK]" means there doesn't remain ONLY ONE at ONE SINGULAR point in time. ])





Hope that helps you see a little bit of my perspective (as a "pre-tribber"). There is much more I could put, but I wanted to try to keep the post relatively short. = )

The Bible tells me
As it was in the time of Noah.

Noah went into the ark and an angel closed the door.

Life went on and people did not realize that judgement has ended.

If they were not in the ark they were lost and they didn't even know it.

Then the flood came on all the Earth including Noah and his family.


Judgement is happening and soon the door will close. When it closes the wrath of God will fall on the Earth. The saved will be protected by God's ark of safety. God's wrath will not hurt His own.
And Jesus will come to take His own.

When Jesus comes the judgement is finished.

1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

The other example is Egypt, God's people went through the plagues

What you have done is place your own meaning on words and verses to prove what you believe.
Like so many, you search Scripture, take it out of context, place your own interpretation on it to teach what you believe
The scripture is clear. John said exactly what Jesus revealed .
The first resurrection includes those who are killed by the man of sin.
Those not in the first resurrection will spend eternity in the lake of fire.
Even if your definition that first means first in quality, which it does not, it does not change the fact that those not in the first in the first resurrection will spent eternity in the lake of fire and all saints, children of God, the chosen will be in the first resurrection.
Put down the commentaries, put aside your preconceived beliefs, and just accept what God clearly states in His Holy Word.

No. That's what I see you doing.

I agree John said "exactly what Jesus revealed".

Where he writes, "THIS ['this one here,' referring back to the previous verse, v.4b--speaking ONLY OF the ones killed during the SECOND HALF of the Trib yrs] is the resurrection the first [adj]," you (in your view) would have to be saying that these LAST MARTYRS are the ONLY ONES who will be involved in "the resurrection the first [adj]," but they aren't.
Verse 6a goes on to say (also) "Blessed and holy is the one HAVING A PART IN the resurrection the first [adj]: on such..." (and HERE in v.6 is where it is INCLUDING ALL "saints" of all times--not merely the particular ones that v.5b's "THIS [this one here]" referred back to speaking solely of the "2nd-half-Trib" martyrs of v.4b! But further INCLUDING *ALL* saints of ALL times (in the wording of v.6--BUT NOTE: there is NO *TIME* restriction in the wording of verse 6 as you are insisting there is)


That's what I just said.

This is what v.5b's "THIS [this one here]" refers BACK to (the Trib martyrs of the SECOND HALF of the 7 yrs, SPECIFICALLY).

V.6 FURTHER speaks of ALL saints of ALL times, but does NOT give a "timing" matter in relation to it (see that verse--It is your PRESUPPOSITIONS that are making you INSERT such an idea INTO verse 6... and additionally into v.5b which only referred back to those in v.4b [killed/martyred at a specific time-frame only])


No disagreement whatsoever...

...other than that "the resurrection the FIRST [ADJ; G4413 - https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g4413/kjv/tr/0-1/ ]" is NOT saying, "THIS is the FIRST TIME that saints will be resurrected".


Given what 1Cor15:23 (not to mention vv.51-54) informs us about, I'm saying it simply CANNOT mean such a thing, as you suggest.


I AGREE that "BLESSED and HOLY is the one HAVING A PART IN the resurrection the FIRST [ADJ]" (i.e. ALL SAINTS of ALL TIMES)... I just do not believe Scripture is saying (as you suggest) that at THIS point in the chronology, it will be THE FIRST *TIME* saints will be resurrected. No!

That's the very thing I'm asking YOU to do.

There are Two Resurrection, the Living in Christ and the Dead not in Christ 1000 years later. The first resurrection is a TYPE (those in Christ) not a specific point in time, the pre 70th week Saints in Christ are raised from the dead and THOSE LIVING will CHANGE (means only our spirit man goes to be with the Lord, flesh and blood can not enter heaven) in the blink of an eye.

Then after the 70th week the Martyrs will be Raised and Judged in Rev. 20:4, that ALSO is the First Resurrection....just like the first football game of the season has four quarters, but all four quarters are a part of the first game. The Wheat is Israel, they must remain on earth with the tares until the end, then they rule for 1000 years with Jesus, but still have sin nature, but the tempter is locked up for 1000 years. The dead Jewish Saints are raised at the very end (when Jesus returns) because they are married unto God the Father, why would the need to go to heaven to marry Jesus when they are already the Fathers bride? They are also a part of the first resurrection.

Psstt, read Rev. 20:4 very carefully, ONLY THOSE who REFUSED the Mark of the Beast (so 70th week Martyrs) live and reign with Christ for 1000 years. God only needs so many people with Glorious Bodies on earth to help him rule. IMHO, the reason the New Jerusalem is called the Bride of Christ as it descends, is because we go back to heaven to finish off the ew Jerusalem.

Do not get caught up in numbers, two types are two types, but we can have the first spread out over a period of time and it still be THE FIRST "TYPE".

Because its TWO TYPE RESURRECTIONS, not two resurrection points. You have only one football game that can be called the first game of the season but it has four quarters.

These are simple truths, yet you guys find ways to see these untruths are factoids.

Jesus told us we should know the times by looking at all the signs. For starters, Israel had to be reborn, and scriptures said that would happen in the END TIMES. So, check that off the board. Secondly the 10 horns or kings had to arise out of the fourth beasts head. The number 10 = completion, see the 10 Virgin Brides that represents the complete church. In Rev. 2:10 Smyrna was told they would have tribulation for 10 days (complete Church Age) So, these 10 represent the E.U. in completeness, the number matters not. Then the Little Horn had to be born amidst them (in the E.U.). In Dan. 8:9 we see the Little Horn has to attack towards the East (Turkey/Seleucus) the South (Egypt/Ptolemy) and towards Israel, which means he must attack from the Northwest or Cassander/Greece. So, Greece us in the E.U. so we will have a Geek born man (this is why we get the Dan . 11 RUNDONW of every Greek king), born amidst or in the E.U. and he will have Old Assyrian bloodline (Iraqi/Turkish blood).

It all has to happen at a time where Iran, Russia and Turkey for a coalition to attack Israel. It all has to happen at a time where one man and his E.U. states can track everything someone buys and sells, and at a time when knowledge INCREASED VERY FAST IN A SUDDEN BURST.

On top of all that good had to be called evil and evil good. Homosexuality had to become an accepted practice. We can see all the signs, the NUMBER ONE SIGN is Apophis is heading our way and will hot on April 13, 2029. Every think about the DOTL Asteroid Impact see in Rev. 8? Do not look for the rapture per se, look for the coming Asteroid Impact, then take of 3.5 years and you can know THE SEASON, not the exact day nor hour. When we minus 3.5 years from April 13, 2029 we get a Fall 2025 Rapture.

I have only been called unto Prophecy right at 40 years, so it does not confuse me at all.

When I said BAD, I of course meant a bad way to look at it, the better way is to do like Jacob, wrestle with God until He gives you an answer.

"pilgarhim" lol I wasn't thinking of that.

What I's sayin' is the church will fail or at least appear to. Very few will endure just as they failed in Gethsemane and the cross ... yet when Jesus arose He called them to Himself. So also when He comes He will call us to Himself ... even if we failed when the test came.

... it was Peter who failed the biggest.

If you want to use this model, then where does ENOCH fit?

Was he not "raptured" before any of it started?

For the record, I do not own nor read commentaries and never have in my 60 years of study.
Nor do I read websites.
I only use God's Holy Word and a Hebrew and Greek dictionary.
God's Ho;y Word is not complicated nor hard to understand if one simply believes what it states, which I do.
I will be in the first resurrection as will all saints.

It would be comical if it were not so sad.
Since the time Jesus established His church during His ministry on earth, Saint have suffered tribulation and even death.
This was even more so when Catholicism took control of Europe.
It is happening today in some countries.
Yet most in the US are so sure that they are so righteous that God will not allow them to suffer as our forefathers have.
Pride is front and center in the life of most today.

As a pre-tribber, I am always pointing out that "the Church which is His body" has been experiencing "persecutions and tribulations" (and even martyrdom) THROUGHOUT its entire existence on the earth from the first century (some near 2000 years, to this point).

We are not WAITING for the future, specific, limited time-period (the "SEVEN YEAR PERIOD") IN ORDER to experience it.

That certainly is NOT the "pre-trib" perspective.

At all.



Paul acknowledged that the saints at Thessalonica were indeed already experiencing (ongoingly) "persecutions and tribulations [ye ENDURE]" 2Th1:4, already at that time. (This is WHY the "false claim" Paul was telling them about in 2Th2:2 had the umph of potentially persuading them that it was TRUE [tho false]).

And he elsewhere says, "Yea, and ALL that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution." (speaking to/for/about "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" ["IN Christ"]). No one is arguing against such, even if you think this is the case, that we are.

How much persecution has the saints in the US suffered in the last 300 years?
How much have you suffered,
Maybe a little inconvenience , but no persecution.
But you still believe God will "rapture" you before tribulation comes.
What makes you more worthy than our forefathers?

Precious friend, I woke up in the middle of the night and realized I ommitted
a Very Important identifying Scripture for Christ's prophecy about them:

Please accept my apology. Thanks.

I do believe what it states.

So, do you believe the word "resurrection" (which means "a standing up again [after having physically DIED; "a standing up again" on the earth, up out of the grave/death]") applies to the "we which are ALIVE and remain unto" ("unto" the point in time being referenced in that passage, i.e. at "our Rapture [in the air]" time-slot, along with "the dead in Christ" who shall "rise" [out-from the dead] first, before we are "caught up TOGETHER [at the same time]" with them...); IOW, are you saying that "[bodily] resurrection" applies to the "we which are ALIVE and remain unto" the point in time of "our Rapture"?


I'm just wondering your perspective on that.







[also of note, is that... the persons in Rev20:4a (corresponding with those in Dan7:22a), being distinct from the ones in Rev20:4b who are "resurrected" from the dead, the ones in 20:4a/Dan7:22a are NOT said to have died at any point (thus not needing to be "resurrected") IN CONTRAST TO the ones in 20:4b who ARE SAID to have been killed (during a certain time-frame, we agree)... and resurrected ("...AND I saw the souls of... and THEY LIVED [same word used re: Jesus in Rev2:8, also speaking to the fact of His bodily resurrection, after having DIED/been physically "DEAD"]")]

accurate description 😊 But The foundations will still remain tho, the earth will be melted by the foundations, 😊

Then a new earth will be formed,..I think the word is refined

No, you seem to have missed my point, where I'd made the point that ANY MEMBER of the Church which is His body (throughout its entire existence on the earth, since the first century... and up till "our Rapture") CAN (at any given moment or spans of time) EXPERIENCE "tribulation" and "persecutions" and even "martyrdom" (NOTHING in Scripture precludes such).




What we are NOT "appointed to" is:

--"the wrath coming" (1Th1:10; 1Th5:9)--A PARTICULAR PERIOD OF TIME involving "JUDGMENTS" unfolding upon the earth [the "7 years" leading up to Christ's "RETURN" to the earth; i.e. what is commonly called "THE Tribulation period" (2520 days)];

--AKA the "IN THE NIGHT" aspect OF "the Day of the Lord" earthly-located TIME-PERIOD (not consisting merely of "a singular 24-hr day" and NOT commencing at either His Second Coming to the earth [Rev19] NOR commencing at some point WITHIN those "7 years / 2520 days"); Scripture informs us that "the Day of the Lord" ARRIVES (to commence) "exactly like [hosper]" the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that COMES UPON a woman in labor [Jesus spoke of this very point in time, in Matt24:4/Mk13:5 where He refers to a particular PERSON bringing deception "G5100 - tis - A CERTAIN ONE," in the FIRST/INITIAL one of "the beginning of birth PANGS [PL]" that He/Jesus is talking about there in that SECTION. So the ARRIVAL of "the Day of the Lord" (involving the "IN THE NIGHT" aspect OF that very lengthy time-period) comes at the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]," not well after those have commenced (like, later MID-trib, or so forth).

"The BEGINNING of birth PANGS" are EQUIVALENT the SEALS of Rev6 (so the INITIAL ONE is the rider on the white horse with a BOW ['bow' often meaning 'DECEPTION'], aka "the man of sin" aka "the king shall do according to his [own] will" Dan11:36, etc); and those are all (also) WITHIN the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period that Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 says "must" take place (i.e. the 7-yr period leading UP TO Christ's "RETURN" to the earth in Rev19). THAT is what WE are NOT APPOINTED TO (we will not step ONE INCH INTO "the Day of the Lord" / "IN THE NIGHT" aspect).

"Behold, the day of the LORD [an EARTHLY-located TIME-PERIOD] cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it." Isa13:9 (but "we" are NOT APPOINTED to THAT. We/"the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" will not be present on the earth for THAT TIME-PERIOD... "the One delivering US [/the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY] out-from THE WRATH COMING" (a very specific, future, LIMITED time-period... on the earth)... 1Th1:10.



I never said we will miss any and all "tribulation" which exists THROUGHOUT the entire years that the Church which is His body has existed (and will) up to "our Rapture"... since the first century. No! The Lord will allow it (for us, "in the here and now") however He deems fit. But this ISN'T the SAME as the promise of our being raptured out prior to "the Day of the Lord [time-period]" involving "WRATH" (and JUDGMENTS unfolding upon the earth OVER SOME TIME--a very specific, future, LIMITED time-period; the "IN THE NIGHT" aspect OF the entire VERY LENGTHY overall "DOTL" which also goes on to INCLUDE the "BLESSINGs" aspect / entire earthly MK age, also)

This has nothing whatsoever to do with it.

Again, you and I (and ALL members of "the Church which is His body") CAN experience (in the here and now, AT ANY TIME) "persecutions" and "tribulation" and indeed even "martyrdom". NO ONE is saying otherwise! (This is NOT the "pre-trib" argument, even though you seem to believe that it IS.)