Are you pre-Trib, mid-Trib, or post-Trib?

Why is it that pre-tribers avoid what the Scripture says about the first resurrection and the fact that those included in the first resurrection are those who have died because they did not take the mark of the beast or worship him?
Or the fact that all who are not in the first resurrection will suffer the second death which is the lake of fire?

Thank you Bob for taking the time to share your perspective. I completely understand why you would view it this way. I too was fan of Hal Lindsey in those days. It's hard to see this in the English translation, but there are two halves to the 7- year Tribulation Period. in Matthew 24 the phrase after the tribulation is referring to the first half, also referred to by many scholars as the "wrath of man" Christians will go through the "wrath of man" because John saw them when the 5th seal was opened under the altar in heaven. Lots of terrible things happen during the first 3-1/2 years.

The second half of the Tribulation Period, or the last 3-1/2 years is the wrath of God. Jesus is referring to the first half in Matthew 24 when He says "after the Tribulation in those days". To prove this, look at Rev 6:12-17 which clearly describes that with the opening of the 6th seal, the wrath of God begins as witnessed by those left behind who are hiding in the caves from Him (Jesus) whom they see in the clouds (Rev 1:7). Those that see Him in the clouds, cry out to the mountains, "Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sit on the throne, and frot the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of THEIR wrath (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) has come.; and who is able to stand?"

No one on earth is able to stand at this point forward. Jesus has taken His children up into heaven to be with him. Now during this last 3-1/2 years, the wrath of God is horrible and I cannot find any Scriptures during the wrath of God that indicate that anyone else is saved. In fact, if found two Scriptures that clearly point out that NO ONE repented and even blasphemed God (Rev 9:21 and Rev 16:11)

Also, the rapture could not happen at the end of the Tribulation because there are two major events that are happening in heaven following the rapture up until the Believers return with Him at the second coming. First, is the Bema seat judgment (2 Corin 9-10)) and then, just before we return with Christ in the 2nd coming, the Wedding Supper of the Lamb happens (Rev 18:7-10).

If we get raptured at the end of the 7-year Tribulation period, there would not be time to attend these important events before we come back down with Jesus in the second coming. And if anyone gets saved during the wrath of God, they will miss out on these events.

One more thing, In Matthew 24:29, Jesus says, "immediately after the tribulation in those days (the first 3-1/2 years), the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. This is the first thing that happens when the wrath of God begins and also described in Rev 8 during the 7 trumpet judgments.

Understanding these Scriptures and the order in which these events will take place is what caused me to change my view from pre-Trib to Mid-Trib over 30 years ago. I also learned the importance of using Scripture to prove Scripture.

Listen to what Jesus is saying this is where the term “ the great tribulation “ comes from

“for then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

He’s literally saying it’s going to be the worst time of tribulation in history before or after that time for those who believe in me

The whole doctrine of the great tribulation comes from what Jesus is telling them they must endure through

“All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. Behold, I have told you before.

Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: ( the world is ending ) and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:8-14, 25-26, 29-

that’s the only reason Christian’s talk about a great tribulation because of what’s in the gospel that was sent to all people to believe it’s fulfillment of the wrath upon Jerusalem for breaking the ot covenant

“And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

Then let them which are in Judæa flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.


And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭21:20-22, 24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

‬‬Jesus was actually telling them you’re for sure going to go through this but stay strong and you’ll be saved. He was preparing then so when it happened tbey wouldnt lose thier faith

If you look at Matthew 24 they ask Jesus to seperwte questions

1 is when will Jerusalem and the temple be destroyed and left that way ?

2 is what will be the signs of your coming to at the end of the world ?

once we look at it that way as if he’s answering both questions it makes more sense he was telling then about thier immediate future and also about the end of the world when he would return and father his family together after all the tribulations of this world have ended and the lord returns and raises the dead

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

we’re waiting for that part Jesus return from heavens kingdom not the immediate desolation and tribulations of Jerusalem due to their breaking the old covenant that was fulfilled in ad 67-70 by the Roman Empire

at he whole term the great tribulation comes forth out of the gospel and thin fs jesus was saying they would have to endure

Matthew 24 has nothing to do with the Rapture. We must go to other Scriptures for the doctrine of the Rapture, starting at John 14:1-3. And actually there is a hint in Revelation 3:10 that believers will NOT face the Tribulation.

Ph?: "Im still confused how anyone ever came up with a pre tribulation rapture"

A long l-o-o-o-n-g time of prayerful/Careful study Of God's Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided ( + 1 ), according to all Bible study Rules, about "What God Came Up With",
Sound Doctrine:
Precious friend, why would we avoid "the first [ prophesied ] resurrection"?
We don't. When we study Rightly Divided, we find it in God's Context Of:

Prophecy / Covenants / Law for Israel! (Daniel, Matthew, Revelation)

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ!” (online):

And, we find "the resurrection of The Body Of Christ" In God's Other
Context Of:

"The Revelation Of The Mystery" / Grace For The Body Of Christ!

Conclusion: God's pre-trib Great GRACE Departure!

Amen.

I am confused by your post.
Do you believe in a pre-trib gathering of the saints?

I believe I included my belief:

yea it would make sense that someone would think Jesus returning and gathering his elect people together has nothing to do with “ the rapture “

“For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:

and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:15-17‬ ‭

That’s where people made up the term “ the rapture “ it doesn’t even appear in the bible. Revelation 3:10 is actually what has nothing to do with the day Jesus is going to gather his people together to meet him in the air which is what people are talking about when they say “ the rapture “ it’s a reference to when Jesus would gather together his people at the resurrection of the dead when he returns like it says

“in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:52‬ ‭

What in the world is the rapture to you if it’s not the promise that Jesus Made to return and gather together his people who believed ?

What even do you think the rapture is ?

and your saying this is the evidence of a rapture ?


“And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭3:7-8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

John was writing during the time these people were all being persecuted imprisoned killed beaten because they wouldn’t deny Jesus ……

“Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭3:10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that’s evidence of a pre tribulation rapture of the modern day church before Jesus and Paul explain it’s going to happen when Jesus returns at the end of the world ? And raised the dead ?

And this has nothing to do when Jesus Will gather his church who are the elect ?

If this isn’t what the term rapture which people invented is referring to what is it you mean by rapture ?

“But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭13:24-27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

That’s not the rapture when Jesus returns and gathers his elect people together ?

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:

and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:15-17‬ ‭

that’s going to happen because this is going to happen the same day to everyone else

“and to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; ( this is the moment of rapture pre wrath but post trib )

when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe in that day.”
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭1:7-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

In other words it’s just as Jesus said it would be he will return at the end of the world , raise up the dead and send his angels to gather his people to him in tbe air, (what people call the rapture ) and then destroy everything with fires of judgement we’re going to be saved from the wrath while we’re in the world there is going to be tribulation the great tribulation happened to Jerusalem and those people who broke the covenant it was the days of the fulfillment of the wrath of thier covenant upon them it’s throughout ot prophecy and is about the desolation of Jerusalem and it’s temple

It wasn’t about the end of the world and Jesus return from heaven and gathering of his people the other things he’s saying about the end of the world and his return from heaven are what we are waiting for that’s the moment of “ rapture “ the term people coined to describe the moment were caught up together with all believers with Jesus at the last trump when he appears coming in the clouds as he’s always said

Hi Grace, Good to hear other's view on why they are pre-Trib. I have a question for you. If the rapture happens before the tribulation begins, then who are the people John sees in heaven under the altar when the 5th seal is opened?

So you will not be in the first resurrection with those who are killed because they do not take the mark of the beast nor worship him.

Or those who are continuing to be killed until the number is full

Yes, and the Apostles all died long before the great tribulation ever gets here, unless one is a preterist or something



This event has not yet happened.

That is actually BAD. So, not understanding God's word leaves us in a position where we are not in a position to do God's perfect will. We should now in a feverish race to get young people saved, once the miss the Rapture they will be in 7 years f hell on earth, including 3.5 years where billions will die. Even those who become Christians and lay down their life will see hell on earth. The A.C. will will threaten to kill their Girlfriends/Boyfriends and Family of they refuse to take the Mark of the Beast, many young people will not be able to refuse, all because we did not preach the TRUTH. If you do not know the truth, its best to find out the truth.

So you will no be in the first resurrection with those saints that die because they do not take the mark of the beast nor worshih him spoken of in Revelation 20?

Precious friend Lori, thanks for the kind words and Great question about:


Who are these 'slain' souls? What Saith The Scriptures?:


According to prophecy for Israel and the nations during the prophesied
70th week of Daniel, this is "the wrath of men and the wicked one",
Correct?

Thus, a good reason for your change to the view of "rapture pre-God's Wrath
{ around mid-trib}", Correct?

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ!” (online):

I will have to respectfully disagree, Because:

According to The Revelation Of The Mystery To Paul, for The Body of Christ,
Under Grace, God's Promise To us Today, "What Saith These Scriptures?":


Thus, without 'adding' to Scriptures, this could be:

Any [ God's, man's, or the Wicked one's ] wrath "that is to come", eh?

Thus, this is another good reason for the view of pre-trib for me.

Amen.

And thanks again for your kind and humble discussion of our differences.

😂yeah of course the world hasn’t ended and Jesus hasn’t returned from heaven ……

look into what happened in 67-70 ad in Jerusalem that’s where you’ll find this which is what he’s talking about in Matthew also

“And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judæa flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭21:20-22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand then let them which be in Judæa flee into the mountains: let him which is on the house top not come down to take any thing out of his house: But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: for then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:15-17, 20-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬


that’s already happened long long ago rome destroyed Jerusalem and it’s temple and it’s never been rebuilt …..we’re waiting for Jesus to return now to gather his people

Daniel 7:25 "And he shall speak great words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High"
The Most High is God and to wear out is to wear away, wear out, to harass constantly, to afflict.
He is the man of sin.
It is obvious that Saints will suffer the wrath of the man of sin during the great tribulation.
Most will die.
To say no saint will suffer wrath is not according to Scripture.

Yes, we should be about our father's business as though He can return at any moment.

But, those that think they have all the end times schedule all mapped out are mistaken!

Is this where you give us an outline showing exactly how end times event will unfold?




Nope, that was not the great tribulation the Bible speaks of.

You teaching preterism which is obviously incorrect.

“Yes, and the Apostles all died long before the great tribulation”

I think ( my opinion from what scripture I’ve read nothing more to be perfectly clear just my own thought about it ) they died in the great tribulation when Rome was slaughtering whole families and throwing them into arenas with wild beasts , burning then alive and hanging them as lampposts in Nero’s garden and tbats what Jesus is talking about the great tribulation coming upon them fornthe wrath of the broken covenant God swore wouod come in tbe prophets even the siege of Jerusalem is in there

he literally is talking to his disciples they came privately and asked him ….

“All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:8-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

That’s not about the end of time it’s about thier generation he tells them that it’s about thier generation in each account of it

But everyone is entitled to thier own opinions though don’t get me wrong thing I ever say is just what I think after reading scripture and prayer and stuff like that nothing official or worth any more than you or anyone else’s opinions my friend . I just hope that’s clear to you just a guy trying to discuss scripture

Hi Pilgrimshope. Hey in my ancestry, I recently learned that I had some ancestors that came to America on the Mayflower! You too? Also, the first person born in my family line born in America from Scotland, he name was Noah!

Anyway, I try very hard not to let my opinion get in the way of what Scripture says, but I could be wrong about that too. But, at this point in my life, I remain a mid-Triber based on how I understand the Scriptures to be interpreted. Thanks for sharing and not getting upset because someone doesn't agree with your view. Have a blessed day!