Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

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Johann

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Apr 12, 2022
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Correct Roger, all necessary laws to be obeyed for ones Salvation was obeyed by Christ in their behalf, and by His One obedience they are and shall be made righteous rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Now if we are included in that many, we will be regenerated and given the gift of faith to embrace it.
Heb 5:8 Although R25he was a son, R26he learned obedience through what he suffered.
Heb 5:9 And R1being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him-

Who are the "all?"


Rom 8:28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together R8for good,N1 for R9those who are called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:29 For those whom he R10foreknew he also R11predestined R12to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be R13the firstborn among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also R14justified, and those whom he justified he also R15glorified.


Moreover, whom he did predestinate,.... Not to sufferings, which are not expressed nor designed, but to grace and glory after mentioned. This predestination is of particular persons, who, in consequence of it, are called, justified, and glorified; it is the effect of divine grace, and entirely owing to it; it is the source of all the other blessings of grace, and is therefore placed at the head of them, and secures them all:
them he also called; not to afflictions: many may be called to afflictions, and endure them, who are neither justified nor glorified; besides, the people of God, though they meet with many afflictions, between their call to eternal glory, and their enjoyment of it, yet they are not so much called to afflictions, as to patience under them: their call is of grace, by special grace, to peculiar blessings of grace, and to a kingdom and glory; and this their calling is secured by predestination, and connected with glorification: and whom he called,
them he also justified; the meaning of which is, not that he approved of them as sincere and faithful, on account of their faith and patience in sufferings; for neither of their sufferings, nor of their faith and patience in them, is there the least mention in the passage; nor can any instance be produced of the use of the word "justified" in this epistle, or elsewhere in this sense: but the meaning is, that such persons whom God predestinates and calls, he makes them righteous by the imputation of the righteousness of his Son unto them; which is unto all, and upon all them that believe; by which they are justified before God, and in their own consciences, from all sin, and so secured from all wrath and condemnation; wherefore glorification stands inseparably connected with it:
and whom he justified, them he also glorified; which is not meant of being made glorious under sufferings; nor of being made glorious by the extraordinary gifts of the Spirit; for the word is never used in this sense, nor is God ever said to glorify his people in this way; and the apostle is speaking of the saints in general, and not of particular ones: if this was the sense, none would be predestinated, called, and justified, but such who have the extraordinary gifts of the Spirit; and none would have the extraordinary gifts of the Spirit, but such persons; whereas many have had these, and yet no interest in the grace of God, and everlasting happiness: but eternal glory is here meant, which is what the apostle had been speaking of in the context; is what the elect are predestinated and called unto; and which their justification gives them a right and title to; and will consist in a likeness to Christ, in communion with him, in an everlasting vision of him, and in a freedom from all that is evil, and in an enjoyment of all that is good; and so the great end of predestinating grace will be answered in them mentioned in the foregoing verse: now this glorification may be said to be already done, with respect to that part of God's elect, who are in heaven, inheriting the promises; and is in some sense true also of that part of them which is on earth, who are called and justified; being made glorious within by the grace of Christ, and arrayed and adorned with the glorious robe of his righteousness; by the one they have a meetness, and by the other a right to eternal glory; of which this grace they have received is the beginning, pledge, and earnest: besides, they are already glorified in Christ, their head and representative, and in the view of God, and with respect to the certainty of it, it being prepared and made ready for them, is in the hands of Christ for them, and is insured to their faith and hope. It is an observation of a Jewish writer (n),
"that a thing שנגזר להיות, "which is decreed to be", is spoken of in the past tense:''
this is the Scripture style concerning things decreed, and such is the glorification of all God's elect.
Gill.
J.
 

brightfame52

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Nov 21, 2020
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@Johann

Heb 5:8 Although R25he was a son, R26he learned obedience through what he suffered.
Heb 5:9 And R1being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him-

Who are the "all?"
Gods elect, being obedient is due to the eternal salvation Christ saved them with
 

Johann

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Apr 12, 2022
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@Johann



Gods elect, being obedient is due to the eternal salvation Christ saved them with
that obey him. Gr. hupakouō (S# G5219, Mat_8:27), to hear under (as a subordinate), that is, to listen attentively; by implication to heed or conform to a command or authority (Strong). In this connexion continuous active obedience is the sign of real faith (Westcott). T872, Heb_5:8, Heb_4:11 mg. *Heb_6:9 note. Exo_29:22, Deu_4:30, Jdg_6:10, Pro_4:4, Isa_1:19; Isa_50:10, +Jer_7:23; Jer_11:4; *Jer_26:13, +*Mat_7:21; +*Mat_7:24; +*Mat_7:25; Mat_12:50, Mar_1:14-15; Mar_3:5; Mar_14:13; Mar_16:16, Luk_6:47; Luk_9:35; +*Luk_11:28, Joh_2:5; **Joh_3:36; **Joh_5:24; **Joh_6:29; Joh_8:51; +*Joh_13:17; *Joh_14:15; *Joh_15:10, Act_3:22; Act_6:7; +*Act_14:22, 2Co_9:13, +*Gal_3:1; *Gal_5:7, *Col_2:10, 2Th_1:8, +*1Pe_1:22; 1Pe_3:1; 1Pe_4:17, +**1Jn_2:3 note. **+1Jn_3:23; **+1Jn_3:24.
 

rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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We are not on the same page
Maybe I missed it, but what do you see as being incorrect about selahsays post? As far as it she stated it, it seems correct to me -
that faith comes as a gift from/with regeneration, by which, we obey and follow after Christ.
 

rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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We are not on the same page
Okay, never mind, sorry, in rereading, I think I see it - it is the "will be" instead of "have been", correct?
It might just have been a phrasing issue rather than an issue of doctrine - not sure.
 

rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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Hi there, Roger…. I think we’re really on the same page here.

There seems to be a misconception among some that the
teaching of obedience or good works is in conflict with the doctrine of justification by faith. …. But in actuality, both these teachings go hand in hand; they complement one another. The truth is that Christians do, in fact, adhere to a faith-based obedience, right? To put it another way, our obedience comes from our faith. People don't obey God until they have faith in Him and accept His teachings. We put our faith in His finished work at the Cross and our desire or delight is to obey His Word. Why? …because we trust and follow Him. :)
Yes, I agree with you and that faith comes with/from salvation (with which, many here would probably disagree). The problem with MerSee's question is the word "necessary". That word can cover a lot of ground and mean a lot of different things. In my opinion, logically speaking, "necessary" cannot exist in a vacuum nor in isolation: "necessary" is always relative to what "necessary" is necessary for, which must be made known to be answered, but MerSee refused to make that known. Ultimately, no one follows Christ or the Bible perfectly so the "necessary" is unachievable, but neither is it a requirement that we do so, since, as you say, we were forgiven for all transgression by Christ at the cross (or a case can be made for even from the foundation of the world). So then, through Christ, for those saved, the "necessary" became unnecessary: we were placed under grace and no longer remain under law. Honestly, I think MerSee considered this and structured the questions so as to be unanswerable except in the way she wanted them answered.
 

brightfame52

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Nov 21, 2020
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that obey him. Gr. hupakouō (S# G5219, Mat_8:27), to hear under (as a subordinate), that is, to listen attentively; by implication to heed or conform to a command or authority (Strong). In this connexion continuous active obedience is the sign of real faith (Westcott). T872, Heb_5:8, Heb_4:11 mg. *Heb_6:9 note. Exo_29:22, Deu_4:30, Jdg_6:10, Pro_4:4, Isa_1:19; Isa_50:10, +Jer_7:23; Jer_11:4; *Jer_26:13, +*Mat_7:21; +*Mat_7:24; +*Mat_7:25; Mat_12:50, Mar_1:14-15; Mar_3:5; Mar_14:13; Mar_16:16, Luk_6:47; Luk_9:35; +*Luk_11:28, Joh_2:5; **Joh_3:36; **Joh_5:24; **Joh_6:29; Joh_8:51; +*Joh_13:17; *Joh_14:15; *Joh_15:10, Act_3:22; Act_6:7; +*Act_14:22, 2Co_9:13, +*Gal_3:1; *Gal_5:7, *Col_2:10, 2Th_1:8, +*1Pe_1:22; 1Pe_3:1; 1Pe_4:17, +**1Jn_2:3 note. **+1Jn_3:23; **+1Jn_3:24.
So Christ died only for them He causes to be obedient by His eternal Salvation He authored. If one never becomes obedient Christ didn't die for them. Do you understand ? Do you agree ?
 

brightfame52

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Nov 21, 2020
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Maybe I missed it, but what do you see as being incorrect about selahsays post? As far as it she stated it, it seems correct to me -
that faith comes as a gift from/with regeneration, by which, we obey and follow after Christ.
See how she answers my question.
 

brightfame52

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Nov 21, 2020
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Okay, never mind, sorry, in rereading, I think I see it - it is the "will be" instead of "have been", correct?
It might just have been a phrasing issue rather than an issue of doctrine - not sure.
From experience Roger when people have a heavy emphasis on obedience, somehow it usually turns out to be conditionalism.
 

Johann

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Apr 12, 2022
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So Christ died only for them He causes to be obedient by His eternal Salvation He authored. If one never becomes obedient Christ didn't die for them. Do you understand ? Do you agree ?
Listen @brightfame52 -busy doing my own Bible studies-I have never heard of a Christian that is NOT obedient to the Imperatives of God and Messiah as it stands written in the D'varim-so yes, I believe every believer eis/into Messiah MUST/Dei yield obedience to our King-Prophet and Priest.
In future-I would appreciate seeing you use Scripture to discern from which angle you are coming from-I don't appreciate paralogisms nor overbearing sophistry-do you see and understand MY position?
J.
 

brightfame52

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Nov 21, 2020
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Listen @brightfame52 -busy doing my own Bible studies-I have never heard of a Christian that is NOT obedient to the Imperatives of God and Messiah as it stands written in the D'varim-so yes, I believe every believer eis/into Messiah MUST/Dei yield obedience to our King-Prophet and Priest.
In future-I would appreciate seeing you use Scripture to discern from which angle you are coming from-I don't appreciate paralogisms nor overbearing sophistry-do you see and understand MY position?
J.
One thing more, do you agree with this ?

If one never becomes obedient Christ didn't die for them. Do you understand ? Do you agree ?
 

Johann

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Apr 12, 2022
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One thing more, do you agree with this ?

If one never becomes obedient Christ didn't die for them. Do you understand ? Do you agree ?
Do me a favor @brightfame52-peiradzo someone else. Or a better option-read John Owen.


1 John 2:2: "He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world."

John 3:16: "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
 

brightfame52

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Nov 21, 2020
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Ahh, okay, understand, brightfame52.
See the poster wont answer that question Roger, more than likely obedience in some fashion, though it be cloaked, is a condition. There are very few on these boards that believe what we believe, that Salvation is based totally on Christs obedience alone, which does effect our Gospel obedience. If no one ever comes to Gospel obedience as Christ fruitful death will effect, then He could not have died for them.