Predestination is misunderstood...

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Cameron143

Cameron143

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Thunderrr-mental said:
how would he know the difference if he's spiritually dead, how does a spiritually dead person know he's dead, according to scripture he's capable of believing He's God.
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He's capable of knowing God exists. He's not capable of understanding his estate before God or his need of salvation; and neither will He seek after God.
 
Thunderrr-mental

Thunderrr-mental

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Cameron143 said:
He's capable of knowing God exists. He's not capable of understanding his estate before God or his need of salvation; and neither will He seek after God.
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which is why God would have to move him,.or else nobody.would be saved.

Do you see the predestination part here.
 
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PaulThomson

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Cameron143 said:
I, like everyone, have a set of beliefs. And like everyone, I hold some beliefs in error. So I welcome everyone's perspective. But I'm not only interested in what people believe but what has led them to their beliefs. To find this out, it's necessary to ask questions.
I realize people are reticent to answer sometimes because one cannot be sure of another's motives. This never concerns me because I'm not bothered by other people's motives or suffer any harm from people's words. Neither is it ever my intention ever to cause people harm. I'm merely asking questions for my personal edification and occasionally to open up people within their own assumptions.
Take the current discussion I'm having with John. It's easy to see how one comes to the conclusion that Jesus died on the cross for the sins of every person who will ever live. But is that accurate? If God is just, I don't understand how He can both accept Jesus' payment for an individual's sins and still hold them accountable for those sins. That's my dilemma. So I asked him how both are possible.
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Why would it be unjust for someone to be more generous with their own resources than we, as finite human beings, might consider to be sufficient or fair? Why can't I, as a benefactor, pay to the justice system the penalty due a criminal's crimes, on the proviso that it only becomes credited to them if and when they eventually admit their fault and make a commitment to serve the king; and if they never do that, the system can do with my prepayment whatever they see fit?
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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Magenta said:
very interesting
Does that then beg the question, of how feisty am I normally? :unsure:

And, does spicy food, make one feisty? :geek:
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You are certainly an independently thinking woman and are forthright in your posts normally, but but I thought we were basically saying the same thing and there must have been a nuance I wasn't understanding.
I'm not sure the effects of spicy food exactly, but my wife is Malaysian and she eats alot of spicy foods and she's plenty feisty. Coincidence?
 
T

tylerbones1313

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Thunderrr-mental said:
you can keep up this false pretence all you like.

The very fact that you say if I don't want to be saved I don't have to be, is a clear utter denial, and disobedience.

Along with @Shepherd who has joined the band wagon of posting blank ignorant responses.

If the lord wills it you will live. And you will do this and that.

He would not will you to say I can reject the lord if i like.

That is something satan would say.

Regrettably people live in denial all there lifes.

Scripture clearly says you can not be certain what tomorrow brings and you need the lord to will your steps.
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Ephesians 2:8-10 in the King James Version (KJV) reads:


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."​
This passage is often seen as a key statement about salvation in Christianity. Here's a breakdown of what it means:

Verse 8:

  • "By grace are ye saved through faith": This emphasizes that salvation is not earned, but rather a gift from God received through faith in Jesus Christ.
  • "That not of yourselves: it is the gift of God": This reinforces that salvation is not something we achieve by our own efforts, but entirely God's work.
Verse 9:

  • "Not of works, lest any man should boast": This clarifies that good works do not contribute to salvation and are not a basis for boasting. Salvation is solely by God's grace through faith.
Verse 10:

  • "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works": This emphasizes that even though salvation is not by works, Christians are created to do good works. These good works are not a means of earning salvation, but rather a natural outflow of a life transformed by Christ.
  • "Which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them": This suggests that God has a specific purpose for each believer and has prepared good works for them to do.
Free moral agency is indeed present in the KJV Scriptures. Here are a few examples:

1. The Garden of Eden:


  • Genesis 2:16-17: "And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."
  • This passage explicitly grants Adam and Eve the freedom to choose between obedience and disobedience, highlighting their moral agency.
2. Joshua's Call to Choose:

  • Joshua 24:15: "And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord."
  • Joshua presents the Israelites with a clear choice, emphasizing their freedom to decide their own path of worship.
3. The Book of Deuteronomy:

  • Deuteronomy 30:19: "I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:"
  • This verse directly links choosing life with choosing God, highlighting the responsibility and freedom individuals have in making moral choices.
4. Ezekiel's Message of Individual Accountability:

  • Ezekiel 18:30-32: "Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord God. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"
  • This passage emphasizes individual responsibility and the power to choose repentance and turn away from sin.
5. Jesus' Affirmation of Free Will:


  • John 7:17: "If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself."
  • Jesus suggests that people have the freedom to choose whether to follow his teachings, implying their agency in spiritual matters.
6. The Book of Revelation:

  • Revelation 3:20: "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me."
  • This verse uses imagery to depict the freedom individuals have to respond to God's invitation.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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PaulThomson said:
Why would it be unjust for someone to be more generous with their own resources than we, as finite human beings, might consider to be sufficient or fair? Why can't I, as a benefactor, pay to the justice system the penalty due a criminal's crimes, on the proviso that it only becomes credited to them if and when they eventually admit their fault and make a commitment to serve the king; and if they never do that, the system can do with my prepayment whatever they see fit?
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In terms of justice in this life that might be possible. But Jesus alone can atone for sin. And that is the debt I'm referring to. And once justice has been satisfied by the debt being paid and accepted, it is not just in my estimation to require further payment.
 
Mem

Mem

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Cameron143 said:
In terms of justice in this life that might be possible. But Jesus alone can atone for sin. And that is the debt I'm referring to. And once justice has been satisfied by the debt being paid and accepted, it is not just in my estimation to require further payment.
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Have you ever considered whether some might regard death as a reward?
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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Mem said:
Have you ever considered whether some might regard death as a reward?
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Are we talking about saved or unsaved people? Saved people should know that to be absent from the body and present with the Lord is vastly superior to life on earth. Some unsaved individuals may believe death would be better, but in reality it is not even close. So I can believe there are those who believe it would be preferable. I suppose many of those who commit suicide feel this way. But I know it is far worse to lift up one's eyes in hell being in torment.
 
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