Predestination is misunderstood...

We do not need a definition of freewill to know that being made in God's image does not impart
all His qualities to us, and since Scripture does not speak of free will (which is how people usually
term it, not freewill), and freewill is only used maybe four times in Scripture, in regard to offerings,
going beyond what is said, especially in this case, is a huge mistake. Think about it.

How true are any of these statements, given as examples to show the error:

The fact that God made us in His image infers our sinlessness.

The fact that God made us in His image infers our sovereignty.

The fact that God made us in His image infers our eternality.

The fact that God made us in His image infers our omniscience.

The fact that God made us in His image infers our omnipotence.

Shall I go on?

Does God have freewill? Because ours is limited, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
You are very creative. To some extent we all are. But we are all limited in our creativity. It makes us less creative, but we are still creative.
I'll grant you that this isn't the focus of the verse. But I certainly believe its included in the verse.

No, being made in his image infers none of the above. Also, if you can't define "free will" then how can you make any coherent statements about it?

Also, if you can't define "free will" then how can you make any coherent statements about it?

Free will is not in the Bible. I do not define things. I allow Scripture to do that. But since it is not there...

No, being made in his image infers none of the above. Also, if you can't define "free will" then how can you make any coherent statements about it?

Pure conjecture! In fact, your response supports the argument that water baptism for believers is not necessary in this life before their death.



Okay just for you, I'll broaden my horizons, although I doubt this will make you happy either: Why are so hostile, belligerent and antagonistic to believers who don't subscribe to your personal beliefs? One of the marks of genuine Christian is love toward the brethren. But I see no love or charity in your posts.

To empower him for a purpose...sure.

God "having" something does not mean it automatically gets passed on to us. See my previous post...

So you want a definition on free will @Rufus?


In Christian theology, free will is the capacity granted by God to individuals to make choices voluntarily and independently. This ability allows humans to decide between various options without external coercion. The concept of free will is crucial in understanding human responsibility, accountability, and the relationship between individuals and God.
Hebrew Perspective:
חָפְשִׁיות (ḥofshiut): This Hebrew term conveys the idea of freedom or liberty, reflecting the ability to make choices without constraint

Greek Perspective:
ἐλευθερία (eleutheria): In Greek, this term refers to freedom or liberty, emphasizing the capacity to act or choose without being compelled
4
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Rabbinical Writings: Just allow me for a moment-I am aware "rabbinical writings" is not well accepted-
Rabbinical writings discuss free will extensively, emphasizing human responsibility for choices and actions. The Mishnah compares the world to a vestibule before the World to Come, highlighting the significance of human decisions in shaping one's destiny

Jewish philosophy delves into the purpose of God's creation and the paradox of free will. It explores how individuals have the freedom to choose between alternatives and how this choice impacts their spiritual journey

In Christian theology, free will plays a vital role in salvation, moral decision-making, and the relationship between God and humanity. While debates exist regarding the extent of human autonomy in light of divine sovereignty, free will remains a foundational concept in understanding human agency and accountability before God.

Shalom
J.

Honesty Cameron, you've really surprised me here, I'm not even going to bother replying to this.

You'll have to learn for yourself.

You know Cameron I've worked with horses, and you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

Your argument centers around the idea that regeneration precedes faith, and that the spiritually dead have no spiritual ability to believe. Here is an exegetical and biblical response to each point:
Scripture's portrayal of the unregenerate:You argue that scripture portrays the unregenerate as being dead, not merely lame, blind, or crippled. This is a valid point, as the Bible does use the metaphor of death to describe the spiritual condition of those who are separated from God (Ephesians 2:1-3). The Greek word for "dead" in this context is "nekros," which means "lifeless" or "inanimate". This emphasizes the idea that the unregenerate are spiritually lifeless and unable to respond to God apart from His intervention.

Nicodemus and the new birth:You argue that Nicodemus could not understand the Gospel of the Kingdom apart from the new birth. This is supported by Jesus' words in John 3:3, where He tells Nicodemus that he must be born again to see the kingdom of God. The Greek word for "born again" is "anothen," which can also mean "from above". This emphasizes the idea that the new birth is a divine work of God, not something that can be achieved through human effort.

Jesus' chiding of Nicodemus: You ask why Jesus chided Nicodemus for not understanding the new birth or its necessity. This is a valid question, as Jesus' rebuke suggests that Nicodemus should have understood the concept of spiritual rebirth based on his knowledge of the Old Testament. While the Old Testament does not use the term "born again," it does contain references to spiritual renewal and regeneration (Ezekiel 36:26-27).

Perceiving the kingdom of God: You ask whether Jesus was telling Nicodemus that he must do something to perceive the kingdom of God or whether something must be done to him before he can "see" the kingdom of God.

This is an important distinction, as it emphasizes the idea that the new birth is a divine work of God that enables individuals to perceive and understand spiritual truth. The Greek word for "see" in John 3:3 is "eido," which can also mean "perceive" or "understand". This suggests that the new birth is necessary for individuals to grasp the reality of the kingdom of God.

Verb tenses and salvation: You cite several verses that use present tense verbs to describe the relationship between faith and eternal life. This is a valid point, as it emphasizes the idea that faith and eternal life are closely connected in the present moment. However, it is important to note that the Bible also speaks of faith as a past event (Ephesians 2:8-9) and as a future hope (1 Peter 1:3-5).

The Greek word for "faith" is "pistis," which can also mean "trust" or "belief". This suggests that faith is not merely a one-time event but an ongoing relationship of trust and dependence on God.
In conclusion, your argument that regeneration precedes faith is supported by biblical references to spiritual death and the new birth.

However, the relationship between faith and regeneration is complex and multifaceted, and the Bible speaks of faith in various tenses and contexts. Ultimately, the order of salvation is a theological issue that requires careful consideration of various biblical passages and theological perspectives. While some Christians may hold the view that regeneration precedes faith, it is important to recognize that this is not the only perspective on this issue.

Shalom brother
J.

Free will is not in the Bible. I do not define things. I allow Scripture to do that. But since it is not there...

I am glad you see the error of saying that since we are made in God's image, we automatically have His qualities.

ok have it your way, ill leave you to your own understanding, and your encouragement to blindly encourage people to say, I Can REJECT CHIST IF I WANT TO, because I have free will, and when im ready to be saved i will be. Yeah naff of satan

but im happy enough thanks.

Good, honest, thoughtful reply. Thank you, brother.

For example, even though we are now a redeemed people of God, scripture still talks of future redemption, i.e. our bodies. Salvation had a starting point for each of us, presently continues in and through us, and will finally be consummated in the future at the end of the age. But even so...if faith preceded regeneration, then why doesn't scripture always express this truth in the future tense instead of the present tense? What the bible is saying is that whoever now believes now has eternal life, and such passages are very reassuring.

And kudos to you for getting some of the answer to the question I posed about Nicodemus with respect to why Jesus chided him. I would encourage you, though, to read Ezek 36 and 37 for a more complete picture. And take particular note of some of the language in chapter 37 -- upon which Jesus seemed to draw upon, such as "wind". And we should pay close attention to these metaphors because who us controls the wind. And then after you meditate some on those two chapters, then revisit John 3.

P.S. Since you rightly mentioned spiritual death as "separation from God", I would give you more things to ponder regarding this separation. When Adam was unceremoniously ejected from the Garden, was he able to return to God's temple (which the Garden really was) or was he locked out? And secondly, I would remind you of the story of the rich man and Lazarus who lived and died in the OT economy. Both were sent to their compartments in Sheol. In Lararus' case, he was in comfort in "Abraham's bosom", while in the rich man's case he was in torment in the flames. And neither could cross over from one realm to the other. No mere mortal could bridge that gap. It took nothing less than God in the flesh to stand in those gaps!

PPS: Almost forgot. When I find some time, I think I can nail down my position on regeneration and faith with a relatively short expo on Eph 2. I think Paul in this chapter nails it perfectly.

So you want a definition on free will @Rufus?


In Christian theology, free will is the capacity granted by God to individuals to make choices voluntarily and independently. This ability allows humans to decide between various options without external coercion. The concept of free will is crucial in understanding human responsibility, accountability, and the relationship between individuals and God.
Hebrew Perspective:
חָפְשִׁיות (ḥofshiut): This Hebrew term conveys the idea of freedom or liberty, reflecting the ability to make choices without constraint

Greek Perspective:
ἐλευθερία (eleutheria): In Greek, this term refers to freedom or liberty, emphasizing the capacity to act or choose without being compelled
4
.
Rabbinical Writings: Just allow me for a moment-I am aware "rabbinical writings" is not well accepted-
Rabbinical writings discuss free will extensively, emphasizing human responsibility for choices and actions. The Mishnah compares the world to a vestibule before the World to Come, highlighting the significance of human decisions in shaping one's destiny

Jewish philosophy delves into the purpose of God's creation and the paradox of free will. It explores how individuals have the freedom to choose between alternatives and how this choice impacts their spiritual journey

In Christian theology, free will plays a vital role in salvation, moral decision-making, and the relationship between God and humanity. While debates exist regarding the extent of human autonomy in light of divine sovereignty, free will remains a foundational concept in understanding human agency and accountability before God.

Shalom
J.

I don't disagree. But we do have the ability to make choices. God has the ability to make choices. Everything we have we have received of Him.
If it's helpful, I'll include it under the auspices of...we are fearfully and wonderfully made.

The above is a great example of fallacious conclusion. I'm a firm believer in "free will", yet I would never say such a thing; for the will of all rational, moral beings (including God!) are in subjection to their our nature. Even God Almighty's will has its limitations as does his image-bearers.

Do you see making choices, and having free will, as the same thing?

I was under the impression that you acknowledged a distinction...

God has done the same thing on occasion. A good example was in the building of the tabernacle and the temple. God gave skills to workmen that they did not formerly possess. When music was added to worship, I believe the same thing happened musically but I'm not positive.