Predestination is misunderstood...

Bingo! Exactly right! How could God be just if he exacted double payment!? But no problem exists when we realize that Jesus laid down his life only for his sheep....and not the goats! Also, if Jesus died for the sins of each and every person in the world, why didn't he pray for each and every person in the world in his High Priestly prayer in John 17 (cp v. 9). Why didn't he interceded and advocate for each and every person in the world if he died for them all?

Joh 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
Joh 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
Joh 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
Joh 17:13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
Joh 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Joh 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
Joh 17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Joh 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
Joh 17:18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
Joh 17:19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
Joh 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;



2) "But for them also which shall believe on me," (alla kai pari ton pisteuonton eis eime) "But also concerning the ones who are believing or trusting in me," and who shall believe in me hereafter; His prayers, earnest petition to the Father, reached forward in time to include you and me, and those who may yet believe.

3) "Through their word;" (dia tou logou auton) "Through the word of them," through their testimony of the truth-word, (eis eime) "by which they trusted in me," and have followed me, as my witnesses through my ministry, to this hour; Joh_15:26-27; Act_1:8; Act_10:41. This prayer affirms the future spread of truth, salvation of souls, and growth of the church, under the consecration and empowering on Pentecost, Act_1:8; Act_2:4.

However-

“Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word” (John 17:20).

Most Bible commentaries maintain that the Lord was talking about you and me, and all of the other members of the Body of Christ who had not yet believed on Him at that time. The problem with this view is that you and I didn’t believe on Christ through the words of the twelve apostles. We believed on Him through the words of the Apostle Paul! Paul is the only biblical writer who presents salvation by grace through faith in the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ (Rom. 3:25). If someone introduced you to Christ using the words of the twelve apostles, they had to read Paul’s gospel into their words, for he is the only biblical writer to preach the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ as the gospel that must be believed in order to be saved (I Cor. 15:1-4).

So who were those who were saved through the word of the apostles? Well, the twelve preached their word at Pentecost, which tells us that those who believed through their word were all Jews, for they were the only people that Peter addressed on that day (Acts 2:14,22,36). So in praying for “them also which shall believe through their word,” the Lord was praying for future Jewish believers. Of course, this means that He had only Jewish believers in mind when He went on to pray for these future saints.

“That they all may be one…that the world may believe that Thou hast sent Me” (John 17:21).

Here again, the commentaries all contend that the Lord was talking about us. After all, didn’t Paul say of Christ, “He is our peace, who hath made both one” (Eph. 2:14), speaking of how Jews and Gentiles were all “baptized into one body” (I Cor. 12:13). The commentaries insist that this is what the Lord had in mind when He prayed “that they all may be one.”

But we’ve already seen that this couldn’t be what the Lord had in mind, since those who believed on Him through the word of the apostles were all Jews. So why was He praying that the Jews might be made one?

Well, if you know your Bible, you know that there came a time in Israel’s history when the ten northern tribes broke away from the two southern tribes and formed their own kingdom (I Kings 12). While God allowed this, He had no intention of letting His people be divided forever! To illustrate this, God instructed Ezekiel to take a stick and write “Israel” on it to represent the ten northern tribes, and then to take another stick and write “Judah” on it to represent the two southern tribes, then to join them together and “make them one stick” (Ezek. 37:15-19). He was told to do all this to illustrate God’s plan to take Israel and Judah and “make them one nation” (v. 22). This, then, is the oneness for which the Lord prayed in our text.

Was His prayer answered? You know it was! At Pentecost, “there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews…out of every nation under heaven” (Acts 2:5). “And all that believed…were together…continuing daily with one accord…with…singleness of heart” (Acts 2:41-46).

Of course, the Lord had a purpose in mind for praying for the reunion of Israel’s two houses. It was, as He said, “that the world may believe that Thou hast sent Me”; and when the reuniting of Israel’s two houses continues in the millennial kingdom, their oneness will cause the world to believe on Christ.

Do you think this will work today? That is, when the world sees the oneness that we have in Christ, do you think maybe they might want in on it? I know for sure that it works the other way! When we bite and devour one another, the world about us finds this most UNattractive. Brethren, do you know who does the most to keep people from believing on Christ? It is not murderers, rapists, and thieves; nothing that men like that do keeps men from believing. No, it is Christians who can’t get along with one another, and who present a poor testimony to the world in other ways, that keep men from believing on Christ. Why not determine right now that as a Christian you are going to “walk worthy of this calling…that the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you” (II Thes. 1:11,12).

pray. Joh_17:6-11, Joh_14:16, 2Ch_6:19, Psa_122:6, Eph_4:11.
for these alone. 1Ki_8:59, Act_2:39, Rom_9:23-24.
but for them. Joh_17:9, +*Joh_10:16; Joh_14:19, Deu_29:15, Zec_6:15, Mat_12:49, *Act_2:41; *Act_4:4, Rom_5:10; Rom_8:34; Rom_15:18-19; *Rom_16:26, 2Ti_1:2.
which shall. **Joh_20:29.
believe. +Joh_4:39; Joh_19:35.
through their word. Act_10:22, Rom_10:14, 1Co_3:5, 1Jn_5:20.

J.

One more time...

Christ's sacrifice was for all sin, however, it is only applied to those who believe. The Lord is always Just.

Yet you advocate that it is Jesus' faith that saves, not the individual's faith. Your beliefs are contradictory.

. While it is true that Jesus' faithfulness and sacrifice on the cross are the ultimate means of salvation, the Bible also teaches that individuals must respond in faith to receive the benefits of His sacrifice. In other words, it is not Jesus' faith that saves, but rather the individual's faith in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.

The Bible teaches that salvation is received through faith in Jesus Christ alone (Ephesians 2:8-9).

This means that individuals must place their trust in Jesus and His sacrifice on the cross as the means of forgiveness and salvation. While Jesus' faithfulness and obedience to God's will were essential in providing the means of salvation, it is the individual's faith in Him that allows them to receive the benefits of His sacrifice.

In summary, while Jesus' faithfulness and sacrifice on the cross are the ultimate means of salvation, it is the individual's faith in Him that allows them to receive the benefits of His sacrifice and be saved from the consequences of sin.

J.

How about I put it in my own words. 1 Corinthians 12:13 is speaking to the work of the Spirit placing the believer into the body of Christ. This is the one baptism spoken of in Ephesians 4:5. It is nonexperiential and accompanies the work of God in salvation. An example from scripture is Acts 2:37 where hearing is given, the heart is pricked or circumcised, and the will affected.
Ephesians 1:13 is experiential and noticeable to others. It's purpose is as a sign and seal to the convert that God has indeed saved them. It is designed to authenticate that God has indeed done the work of salvation within an individual. We see this in a grand way on the day of Pentecost, and to lesser but similar ways throughout the book of Acts, notably for Cornelius and his family.

Nope, the faith of Jesus Christ, which is God's righteousness, is imputed to those that believe.

nonsense

James 2:16-20
16 And one of you say to them: Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; yet give them not those things that are necessary for the body, what shall it profit? 17 So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself. 18 But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith. 19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Scripture is everywhere clear-the one thing a person must do to be saved is exercise "true saving faith" in Christ. Faith is the instrument that God uses to bring individuals into a saving relationship with Himself. That is not to say that faith is the basis of our salvation; rather, it is the channel by which God grants salvation. Noted theologian B.B. Warfield said, "The saving power of faith resides thus not in itself, but in the Almighty Savior on whom it rests...It is not, strictly speaking, even faith in Christ that saves, but that Christ saves through faith."

Faith comes to the believer as a gift from God. It is not something that individuals are capable of mustering up on their own. Were faith a work of man's own doing, man would be in a position to take partial credit for his redemption. But such a concept is foreign to the writers of Scripture. Paul anticipated that men would tend to boast of their part in salvation when he wrote that faith (one of many components of salvation) "is the gift of God...that no one should boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9). As Charles Haddon Spurgeon was fond of saying, salvation is "all of grace."

Faith comes as a result of the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit-He quickens our hearts to believe. Apart from the new birth, there can be no true faith. Therefore, faith, though it manifests itself in action, comes as a result of God's work in us. God grants us faith and that faith is evidenced by our walking in the good works that "God [has] prepared beforehand" for us to walk in (Ephesians 2:10).

The Bible says that if we believe on the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved. However, the Bible does not present faith as simply "mental assent to the facts of the gospel." True saving faith involves repentance from one's sin and a complete trust in the work of Christ to save from sin and make one righteous. The Reformers spoke of three aspects of faith: recognition of the truth claims of the gospel, acknowledgment of their truthfulness and exact correspondence to man's spiritual need, and a personal commitment to the Lord Jesus Christ who, by virtue of His death, provides the only sufficient sacrifice for one's personal sin. Any one of these three aspects of faith, taken by themselves, is insufficient to meet the biblical definition of saving faith. However, the presence of all three components together results in saving faith. In other words, saving faith consists of mental, emotional, and volitional elements. Saving faith involves both the mind and the will.

In addition to calling us to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, the New Testament uses several figures of speech to describe the nature of saving faith. Perhaps the most vivid of those figurative references is found in Jesus' words from the Sermon on the Mount: "Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied" (Matthew 5:6). In that passage, Jesus likens true faith to hungering and thirsting. The unbeliever, by virtue of the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit, recognizes his or her dire need of nourishment and refreshment and comes to Jesus begging that He fill the need. That is a beautiful picture of faith. First, there is recognition of Jesus' claim to be the "bread of life" (John 6:35) and the possessor of "living water" (John 4:10). Next, the unbeliever is convinced that Jesus' promise is really true and that it corresponds exactly with his profound hunger and thirst. Finally, the unbeliever acts-he begs Jesus to satisfy his hunger and quench his thirst. True faith hears, believes, and actively responds.
https://www.gty.org/library/questio...text=What is the nature of true saving faith?

Get a life @Thunderrr-mental
J.

This is my interpretation of once saved always saved.

For we do not know the hour or The day the lord will return.
But we have been left with his fruits of the holy spirit, The attributes of Lord Jesus Christ and the father and the holy spirit are all embedded in the fruits of the believer
The fruits of love always call out to there place of source through the believer to there place of origin from heaven,

The Fruits long for the return of the lord and the fruits are a seed of light from the holy spirit with the attributes of Our lord Jesus and the knowledge of his Father.

As believers The fruits lead us to hope but always keep us patient and calm knowing that they will return to the place of origin, for the fruits have the strength of the father mixed in and the wisdom and knowledge of knowing how to keep there new found light in there new found vessel the heart and mind if every believer, in reassurance.

The believer feals the presence of something wonderful and some times longs for that day more than ever, sometimes becoming mixed up in emotions of overwhelming love,

Which draws them to a place longing to see the lord and Father,
It's then the. Fruits speaks again to the believer only this time it's different because the believer is feeling mixed up in there emotions, it's then when once again God the father wills there steps.
The holy spirit hears there calling of distress and Jesus receives there message knowing his Sheep he once again relays a message to the holy spirit that then relays the message to the believer who knows his voice who hears his voice,

Until the next time the lord wills your steps which is everyday for me 😊

you said the faith of Jesus doesn't save you, are you going to stand by that

Ok. Now to my actual question: how is it justice to accept a payment for a debt and still require another payment?
How about this:
I lend you a dollar and you agree to repay within a week or you have to give me your house. At the end of the week I come to see you. You don't have the dollar to repay me. But a friend offers to pay the dollar on your behalf. I agree and take the payment. If I still take your house also, am I just?

Decent analogy.

But I think this one might fit better.

I PAID for a cure for a fatal illness. All you have to do is accept it. I STILL paid for it even if you don't believe it cures your fatal illness, or in fact don't even believe you have a fatal illness.

the point is I paid for it whether you use it or not.

There a many qualified government grants that have been left unapplied, for lack of the awareness for the proper application, such as home ownership grants, for example. And these are homeless with nothing other than ignorance standing between them and a house.

This does answer the same concern but differently. I'm trying to focus on the "justness" of one who is owed the debt.

True. But your perspective is from the point of view of the recipient. That would require a different line of questioning. I'm merely considering the justice of God.

No offense bro, but only Jesus can be the atonement for sin. But we certainly can be a witness to sin being forgiven,.

The blood of Jesus atoned for all sin that was present at the time, at his crucification.

But he never atoned for sin that was unrepented.

He did of course say forgive them father for they do not know what they do.

But he was talking about the people crucifying him.

The sin was in the blood Of Jesus from Adam. Which includes all sin, and every sin of mankind.

He atoned it by overcoming all sin it in the flesh and what was in his blood from Mary, which was blood from all ancestry.

But he never atoned unrepented sin.

That sin must be washed when your baptised by the Holy Spirit and with the Holy Spirit.

The Justice has been applied to Christ, the proverbial bank that is in possession of the funds.

We no longer going to die for our sins, we're dying for our ignorance. That is what we no longer have excuse for.