Predestination is misunderstood...

So onto my next question.

We can't at this moment agree Paul was a prophet, buts that's ok. There's always time for that.

Made Alive in Christ
2 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.



Question

Baring in mind this scripture, would you say Paul was telling the Ephesus saints, it is by Good will you have been saved, and not by an unmerited favour, when it's comes to understanding what the word Grace actually means.

Baring in mind this scripture, would you say Paul was telling the Ephesus saints, it is by Good will you have been saved, and not by an unmerited favour, when it's comes to understanding what the word Grace actually means.

when we were dead -- A spiritually dead person need to be made alive by God. Salvation bring spritual life to the dead. The power that raises believers out of death and makes them alive (cf. Rom_6:1-7) is the same power that raised Christ from the dead. (cf. Rom_6:11-13).

quickened -- made alive. Through union with Christ, obedient believers receive new life that reverses the effects of death (compare Rom_6:4-11; Joh_3:16-17). Those who believe in Christ participate in His death and resurrection. Consequently, believers share in Christ’s resurrected life

saved -- In this context, the Greek word used here, sōzō, refers to God delivering people from death and giving them life. - FSB

saved by Grace -- Out of God's grace (unmerited favor toward mankind) He has provided the Means (a Savior) and the Method (the plan = faith/trust that obeys) of our salvation.

You should choose scripture that actually contains the word predestined. Thanks.

προορίζω
proorízō; fut. proorísō, from pró (G4253), before, and horízō (G3724), to determine. To determine or decree beforehand (Act_4:28; Rom_8:29-30; 1Co_2:7; Eph_1:5, Eph_1:11). The peace of the Christian Church has been disrupted due to the misunderstanding which surrounds this word. It behooves the Church to consider the divinely intended meaning of this word by carefully examining the critical passages where it is used.

In 1Co_2:7 it has a thing as its obj., namely, the wisdom of God. The purpose was our glory, i.e., our benefits of salvation.

In Act_4:28 the verb is followed by the aor. inf. genésthai (gínomai [G1096], to be, become), to be done.

The action of Herod and Pontius Pilate in crucifying Jesus Christ is said to have been predetermined or foreordained by the hand and will of God. This indicates that Christ's mission, especially His death and resurrection, was not ultimately the result of human will but originated in the eternal counsel of God which decreed the event determining all its primary and secondary causes, instruments, agents, and contingencies.

In Rom_8:29-30, predestination is used of God's actions in eternally decreeing both the objects and goal of His plan of salvation. Proorízō has a personal obj., the pl. relative pron. hoús, whom. This relative pron. refers to those previously mentioned as those whom God foreknew (proégnō [G4267]). The translation is, "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate." The objects of predestination are those whom He foreknew.

Predestination does not involve a predetermined plan only but also includes the individuals for whom the plan is devised. The goal of predestination is expressed in the phrase, "to be conformed to the image of his Son."

In Eph_1:5, Eph_1:11 this same purpose of foreordination is termed adoption. Adoption (huiothesía [G5206]) is the placing into sonship or legal heirship of those who are born of God. According to Eph_1:5 the basis of this prior decree is "the good pleasure of His will." The word rendered "good pleasure" is eudokía (G2107) and means pleasure or satisfaction, that which seems good.

Paul is careful to add that it is the good pleasure of God's will, it is what seems good to God-not man. Similarly, in Eph_1:11 foreordination is based upon "the purpose (próthesis [G4286]) of the One who is working all things ([neut. acc. pl.] tá pánta [G3844], an idiom for the entire metaphysical and physical universe) according to the decision of His will" (a.t.). This same thinking is reflected in Rom_8:30 where foreordination is joined successively to foreknowledge.

Here it is presented not as a capricious, arbitrary or whimsical exercise of raw will or unreasoned impulse, but as the expression of a deliberate and wise plan which purposes to redeem those undeserving sinners whom God freely favors as the objects of His mercy.
Because it is neither possible nor permissible for us to pry into God's secret counsel, it is not proper to be fixated with determining who the predestined are. Instead, we should contemplate the glories of what they are predestined to, i.e., salvation, adoption, or glory.
Syn.: protássō (G4384), to appoint before; procheirízō (G4400), to appoint beforehand; proetoimázō (G4282), to prepare before.

being predestinated. See on Eph_1:5, Luk_22:29, +*+Rom_8:29; +*+Rom_8:30, 1Th_2:12.
according to. *Eph_3:11, +*Deu_2:30, +*Psa_115:3, +*Pro_21:1, +Isa_14:27; Isa_46:10-11, *+Rom_8:28; +*Rom_9:18, *2Ti_1:9, Rev_4:11.
the purpose. Gr. prothesis [S# G4286: Rendered (1) purpose: Act_11:23; Act_27:13, Rom_8:28; Rom_9:11, Eph_1:11; Eph_3:11, 2Ti_1:9, 2Ti_3:10, (2) shewbread: Mat_12:4, Mar_2:26, Luk_6:4, Heb_9:2]. See on Eph_1:9, Eph_3:11, 1Sa_12:22, 2Ch_25:16, Job_9:12, Isa_23:9, Jer_4:28; Jer_25:28, Luk_12:32, Rom_8:28; Rom_9:11, +*2Ti_1:9.
who worketh. Gr. energeō (S# G1754, Mat_14:2). Eph_1:20 g. Eph_2:2, Ecc_9:11, *Isa_43:13, *Lam_3:37, +Mat_14:2, Rom_7:5, 1Co_12:6.
all things. T260. +Deu_2:30 (T267). +1Sa_2:7 (T3). +2Sa_7:14 (T265). *1Ch_29:12, +2Ch_18:31 (T264). Job_33:29; Job_42:2, *Psa_135:6; *Psa_135:7; Psa_147:8-9; Psa_147:15-18, *Pro_16:33, Isa_26:12; +*Isa_45:7, Jer_10:13, +Dan_1:9 (T266). +*Amo_3:6, *Mat_10:29; *Mat_10:30, Act_15:18, +*Rom_8:28; Rom_11:36, 1Co_12:6, *Php_2:13, *Heb_13:20; *Heb_13:21.
the counsel. Gr. boulē (S# G1012, Luk_7:30). See on Eph_1:8, Job_12:13; Job_36:23, *Psa_33:11, Pro_8:14; Pro_19:21, Isa_5:19; Isa_9:6; Isa_25:1; Isa_28:29; Isa_40:13-14; **Isa_46:10-13, Jer_23:18; Jer_32:19; Jer_49:20; Jer_50:45, Dan_4:35, Zec_6:13, Mat_1:19 g. *Luk_7:30; Luk_10:21, Act_2:23; Act_4:28; *+Act_20:27, *Rom_11:34, Col_2:3, Heb_6:17, 1Jn_2:1, Rev_3:18.
his own will. God the Father is sovereign. Psa_24:1; Psa_115:3, Ecc_7:13, Isa_45:9, Dan_4:25; Dan_4:35; Dan_11:3, Jon_1:14, Mat_11:26; Mat_20:15; +*Mat_28:19 note. Luk_4:25, +Joh_19:11, +*Rom_9:18 (T234). 1Co_12:11, Gal_1:4, +*Php_2:13 note. Rev_4:11.

Glory to God
J.

According to scripture, how does God know who are his?

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

προορίζω
proorízō; fut. proorísō, from pró (G4253), before, and horízō (G3724), to determine. To determine or decree beforehand (Act_4:28; Rom_8:29-30; 1Co_2:7; Eph_1:5, Eph_1:11). The peace of the Christian Church has been disrupted due to the misunderstanding which surrounds this word. It behooves the Church to consider the divinely intended meaning of this word by carefully examining the critical passages where it is used.

In 1Co_2:7 it has a thing as its obj., namely, the wisdom of God. The purpose was our glory, i.e., our benefits of salvation.

In Act_4:28 the verb is followed by the aor. inf. genésthai (gínomai [G1096], to be, become), to be done.

The action of Herod and Pontius Pilate in crucifying Jesus Christ is said to have been predetermined or foreordained by the hand and will of God. This indicates that Christ's mission, especially His death and resurrection, was not ultimately the result of human will but originated in the eternal counsel of God which decreed the event determining all its primary and secondary causes, instruments, agents, and contingencies.

In Rom_8:29-30, predestination is used of God's actions in eternally decreeing both the objects and goal of His plan of salvation. Proorízō has a personal obj., the pl. relative pron. hoús, whom. This relative pron. refers to those previously mentioned as those whom God foreknew (proégnō [G4267]). The translation is, "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate." The objects of predestination are those whom He foreknew.

Predestination does not involve a predetermined plan only but also includes the individuals for whom the plan is devised. The goal of predestination is expressed in the phrase, "to be conformed to the image of his Son."

In Eph_1:5, Eph_1:11 this same purpose of foreordination is termed adoption. Adoption (huiothesía [G5206]) is the placing into sonship or legal heirship of those who are born of God. According to Eph_1:5 the basis of this prior decree is "the good pleasure of His will." The word rendered "good pleasure" is eudokía (G2107) and means pleasure or satisfaction, that which seems good.

Paul is careful to add that it is the good pleasure of God's will, it is what seems good to God-not man. Similarly, in Eph_1:11 foreordination is based upon "the purpose (próthesis [G4286]) of the One who is working all things ([neut. acc. pl.] tá pánta [G3844], an idiom for the entire metaphysical and physical universe) according to the decision of His will" (a.t.). This same thinking is reflected in Rom_8:30 where foreordination is joined successively to foreknowledge.

Here it is presented not as a capricious, arbitrary or whimsical exercise of raw will or unreasoned impulse, but as the expression of a deliberate and wise plan which purposes to redeem those undeserving sinners whom God freely favors as the objects of His mercy.
Because it is neither possible nor permissible for us to pry into God's secret counsel, it is not proper to be fixated with determining who the predestined are. Instead, we should contemplate the glories of what they are predestined to, i.e., salvation, adoption, or glory.
Syn.: protássō (G4384), to appoint before; procheirízō (G4400), to appoint beforehand; proetoimázō (G4282), to prepare before.

being predestinated. See on Eph_1:5, Luk_22:29, +*+Rom_8:29; +*+Rom_8:30, 1Th_2:12.
according to. *Eph_3:11, +*Deu_2:30, +*Psa_115:3, +*Pro_21:1, +Isa_14:27; Isa_46:10-11, *+Rom_8:28; +*Rom_9:18, *2Ti_1:9, Rev_4:11.
the purpose. Gr. prothesis [S# G4286: Rendered (1) purpose: Act_11:23; Act_27:13, Rom_8:28; Rom_9:11, Eph_1:11; Eph_3:11, 2Ti_1:9, 2Ti_3:10, (2) shewbread: Mat_12:4, Mar_2:26, Luk_6:4, Heb_9:2]. See on Eph_1:9, Eph_3:11, 1Sa_12:22, 2Ch_25:16, Job_9:12, Isa_23:9, Jer_4:28; Jer_25:28, Luk_12:32, Rom_8:28; Rom_9:11, +*2Ti_1:9.
who worketh. Gr. energeō (S# G1754, Mat_14:2). Eph_1:20 g. Eph_2:2, Ecc_9:11, *Isa_43:13, *Lam_3:37, +Mat_14:2, Rom_7:5, 1Co_12:6.
all things. T260. +Deu_2:30 (T267). +1Sa_2:7 (T3). +2Sa_7:14 (T265). *1Ch_29:12, +2Ch_18:31 (T264). Job_33:29; Job_42:2, *Psa_135:6; *Psa_135:7; Psa_147:8-9; Psa_147:15-18, *Pro_16:33, Isa_26:12; +*Isa_45:7, Jer_10:13, +Dan_1:9 (T266). +*Amo_3:6, *Mat_10:29; *Mat_10:30, Act_15:18, +*Rom_8:28; Rom_11:36, 1Co_12:6, *Php_2:13, *Heb_13:20; *Heb_13:21.
the counsel. Gr. boulē (S# G1012, Luk_7:30). See on Eph_1:8, Job_12:13; Job_36:23, *Psa_33:11, Pro_8:14; Pro_19:21, Isa_5:19; Isa_9:6; Isa_25:1; Isa_28:29; Isa_40:13-14; **Isa_46:10-13, Jer_23:18; Jer_32:19; Jer_49:20; Jer_50:45, Dan_4:35, Zec_6:13, Mat_1:19 g. *Luk_7:30; Luk_10:21, Act_2:23; Act_4:28; *+Act_20:27, *Rom_11:34, Col_2:3, Heb_6:17, 1Jn_2:1, Rev_3:18.
his own will. God the Father is sovereign. Psa_24:1; Psa_115:3, Ecc_7:13, Isa_45:9, Dan_4:25; Dan_4:35; Dan_11:3, Jon_1:14, Mat_11:26; Mat_20:15; +*Mat_28:19 note. Luk_4:25, +Joh_19:11, +*Rom_9:18 (T234). 1Co_12:11, Gal_1:4, +*Php_2:13 note. Rev_4:11.

Glory to God
J.

Yeah, that's why I referred to us as being God's friends. He knows us, He's always knowing us, it's not hard to understand. And because He knows us, He knows where and when to put us to His best advantage.

He doesn't choose who believes and who doesn't believe as some tend to think. That's not pre-destination. The doctrine has absolutely no application for unbelievers.

The Lord knoweth them that are his (ἔγνω κύριος τοὺς ὄντας αὐτοῦ)
The first inscription: God knows his own. Comp. Num_16:5; 1Co_13:12. For ἔγνω knoweth, see on Gal_4:9. Them that are his, his ἐκλεκτοὶ chosen; see 2Ti_2:10; Tit_1:1; Rom_8:33; Col_3:12; 1Pe_2:9 : Rev_17:14. Not, however, in any hard, predestinarian sense. Comp. Joh_10:14; Mat_7:23; Luk_13:25, Luk_13:27.
VWP

"The Lord knows those who are His" This may be an allusion to Num. 16:5 in the Septuagint, a historical setting of factions and division, as well as John 10:14,27.

SEAL

A seal may have been an ancient way of showing

1. truth (cf. John 3:33)

2. ownership (cf. John 6:27; 2 Tim. 2:19; Rev. 7:2-3; 9:4)

3. security or protection (cf. Gen. 4:15; Matt. 27:66; Rom. 4:11; 15:28; 2 Cor. 1:22; Eph. 1:13; 4:30; Rev. 20:3)

Verb - Aorist Indicative Active - 3rd Person Singular


THE SYNONYMOUS WORDS
FOR
"KNOW", "KNOWLEDGE", ETC.


I. THE VERB
1. oida = to know (intuitively) without effort, to understand. No. i is subjective, while No. ii is objective.
2. ginosko = to know (by experience, or effort); to acquire knowledge, become acquainted with; hence, to come or get to know, learn, perceive. See Joh_1:48. 1Jn_5:20. Eph_5:5.
3. epi-ginosko . No. ii with epi = upon (Ap. 104. xiv); to know thereupon, to become thoroughly acquainted with; to know thoroughly and accurately, recognize. See 1Co_13:12.
4. pro-ginosko . No. ii with pro (Ap 104. xiv) = to get to know beforehand, to foreknow.
5. epistamai = to obtain, and thus have a knowledge of anything by proximity to it, or as the result of prolonged attention; in contrast with the process of getting to know it, or with a mere casual, dilettante acquaintance with it. See Act_15:7; Act_18:25; and see note on Act_19:15.

II. THE NOUN
1. gnosis = knowledge acquired by learning, effort, or experience. the result of No. ii above.
2. epignosis = precise or further knowledge, thorough acquaintance with; true knowledge.
3. sunesis = native insight, understanding, capacity to apprehend; used of reflective thought, while sophia (wisdom) is used of productive thought.

Did I answer your question @John146?

J.

I think I will call you Tyson fury 😋

The difference between good will and unmerited favor (grace) lies in their sources and the conditions for receiving them.
Good will refers to a positive disposition or intention towards someone. It is a voluntary choice to be kind, friendly, or supportive. Good will can be earned through one's actions and is based on merit.
Unmerited favor (grace) is the free and undeserved goodness and favor of God.

It is not based on merit or earned through human effort.

Grace is a gift from God, given to sinners who cannot earn salvation or favor through their own actions.
In summary, good will is a human response that can be earned, while grace is a divine gift that is unmerited and undeserved. Grace is the foundation of salvation in Christianity, while good will is a human response that can be expressed towards others.

Shalom
J.

Nah-Sly would suffice-there's a reason why I picked this pic.
J.

Let's stick with scripture. The Lord knows who are his by his seal, the Holy Spirit that he has placed in those that believe.

Ephesians 1:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

I'm not confused. I'm asking for your perspective. Does it make a difference that scripture speaks in terms of who God foreknew and not what God foreknew?

np sly, I was just thinking fury because of the fury you have in unleashing a full account of devotion. 😂

29 Being then God’s offspring, we ought not to think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination of man. 30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, 31 because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.”

Yes....

I'm not confused. I'm asking for your perspective. Does it make a difference that scripture speaks in terms of who God foreknew and not what God foreknew?

I personaly feel it is good will you have been saved by, not because it suggests someone may save you because they favour you, but because of the good will of that person.

When a person looks at being saved by an unmerited favour, do they really look at what it took for them to be saved.

That contains what those gentiles were to repent of....

Here!

Being then God’s offspring, we ought not to think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination of man.

See it?

Any Catholics amongst us?